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Post by Merkuri on Feb 7, 2004 9:51:17 GMT -5
Actually, it was Nazi Germany. Italy was Facist. But that's not important. Actually, Nazism is usually considered a form of Facism. It's not exactly the same thing, but close enough. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 7, 2004 10:00:11 GMT -5
First off, just to play devil's advocate, a tag might tell the gogvernment that you're at the grocery store or drug store (whatever the example was). And to some of you, that's an invasion of privacy. But: Would that chip have been an invasion of privacy to the young girl found dead in Florida yesterday? Or the still-missing CO college student? Or Elizabeth Smart? Or would it have saved their families months of hearache? For every "invasion", there is also a benefit to be weighed. This is why I'm not strictly opposed to the idea. I think it's dangerous, but I can see the benefits. I think this information should fall under the category of information you need a warrant to obtain. It should not be accessable by the public at all, and there should be many safety devices to ensure the government can't get at it without just cause. The government should also not go out of its way to create a network of "watchpoints" (like putting RFID scanners on every lamppost). And the tags should be obvious and easy to remove if the consumer feels the need.
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Post by Galadon on Feb 7, 2004 13:56:16 GMT -5
someone open the drain the flooding won't let me in.
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 7, 2004 13:58:17 GMT -5
Huh?
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Post by Galadon on Feb 7, 2004 14:34:01 GMT -5
Sometimes I'll get a message "there is flooding wait till later to post message."
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Post by Galadon on Feb 7, 2004 14:44:18 GMT -5
Personally I find the complaints about government invading our privacy a bit absurd. But first let me shed the light on a failed trick of the left.
I say there are some who can't handel freedom and have to be told what to do.
The Left will come back and say. "What you think everybody's freedom should be taken away!!!"
The left likes this extreme all or nothing stand.
America has the most freedom of any country in the world. When certain measures like the patriot act are enacted to catch terrorist. SOME people complain like it the greatest injustice ever imposed. (ok so saying greatest might be a little over the top.)
Now if a Store puts tags on the items they are selling, I would ask one question. Is there someting wrong with trying to prevent stealing?
But let us look at it in the other side. lets get rid of the all the convenance of a speed pass. Have every one stop at a booth and dig out some change to put in a basket. slow people, cause stress, because everyone is in a big hurry, maybe some road rage. Take all tags and other devices away from all stores, no camera's. So they can go back to being shoplifted till they close the doors. Yes I can see how this is better.
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Post by Galadon on Feb 7, 2004 15:10:54 GMT -5
Why do I think all the complaining about privacy is aburd.
Let's take a look at a 16 year old girl in this country. 1. She expect her own car, bought by her parents of course.
2. She puts on make up
3. Listens to music on her cd player.
4. Dresses in what ever clothes her parents let her. When she is out of the house changes into different clothes.
5. Goes to the mall with other female friends. Eats fast food, talks about boys.
6. Goes to see a movie.
7. Complains how terrible school is. She is forced to do homework.
8. Goes home and complains her parents don't let her do anything.
9. Watches cabel or satelite tv.
10. Complains the goverment is intruding on her privacy.
[glow=red,2,300]Now lets look at a 16 year old girl in Afghanstan under the rule of the Taliban.[/glow]
1. Hmmmm
Let's make it easy. Look at 1 -10 and tell me if you think any female in Afganhstan could do any of them.
(Ask any female from afganhstan if getting rid of the Taliban was a bad idea.)
And yet we have it so rough in this country. Just because the goverment is trying to [glow=red,2,300]protect this country from enemy's both foreign and domestic[/glow] What document is that from.
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Post by Galadon on Feb 7, 2004 15:28:30 GMT -5
If your worried about the government spying on you rip up your Social security card and never use the number again. That is the easy to track you. Get rid of the Driver's licence and credit cards. When going to the hospital don't give any insurance information. Etc. etc, etc, etc.
Oh If you need any of that just do what the terrorist do, get it illegally.
Take a look at your life how many different things do you use without thinking about it that give out information. How many buy things over the internet, and give their credit card numer. The Goverment or anyone else does not need any high tech gadets to get information on you. Take a look in your garbage, That is a gold mine of information for most people.
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 7, 2004 15:29:59 GMT -5
Just because we have it better off than many (if not most) other countries doesn't mean we live in a utopia. Our government is not perfect, and even if it were the most perfect government out there it wouldn't mean we should stop trying to fix things we think are wrong. We have the right to free speech so that if we see that something is wrong we can say something about it and hopefully some day get it fixed. I will complain about my (ficticious or not) right to privacy all I want because I think it's a topic that needs to be complained about. If nobody spoke up when they felt their privacy was being violated then some day we might end up with cameras in our houses, being watched 24/7 by Big Brother, afraid to read a book because the book we're reading might be considered "inappropriate" by somebody watching.
If you weren't suggesting that everyone's freedoms need to be limited because some people can't handle their freedoms, then I don't know what you were saying. Rephrase it for me, because I obviously didn't understand you.
There is nothing wrong with a store trying to prevent stealing. Stores are private property, and while I'm in their store I'm on their property handling their goods and they have a right to watch me. What I don't think they have a right to do is watch me after I leave their store (assuming I have paid for everything that leaves with me, of course). I think RFID technology is wonderful. The time and money saved by factories, warehouses, stores, and even consumers will be tremendous. BUT I think we need to think carefully about technology like this. We need to make sure it can't be abused before we let it loose on the public. Measures need to be taken to protect my privacy. This is all I am saying. I do not want the development of RFID tags or similar technology to stop, I do not want speedpasses and those little anti-theft tags inside DVD cases to be delcared illegal and burned. I do want people to be educated about the risks of such things, however. If we idenfity ways they can be abused now, before they are widespread, then we can prevent the misuse of this technology before it occurs. It's always better to get rid of a problem before it comes a problem then to have to deal with it later.
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Post by Challenger on Feb 7, 2004 17:52:37 GMT -5
Merkuri you do realise the government couldn't realy give two hoots what your doing unless your comitting a crime. (And then half the time couldn't care less anyway)
Why would they go to the bother of tracking you through these tags. It would
a. be expencive b. unpopular with the voters and c. a masive waste of time and energy in tracking someone for no reason.
It would also be extremely easy to bugger up.
Lets take an example. You buy two of said shirt with RFID tags. Next day you lend one to a mate. Now there are two Merkuri's wandering arround America. Or maby more if you've brought several friends presents with these tags.
Short of tagging you personaly this would simply not work as a tracking system.
Challenger
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 7, 2004 19:55:19 GMT -5
As I said in the beginning, it isn't really the government I'm worried about abusing RFID tags. I kinda got drawn off on a political privacy tangent by somebody who shall remain nameless. It's more individuals and corporations I'm worried about. And it wouldn't be very expensive to set up a simple tracking network made up of the data from individual stores that use the technology. Let's say store A decides to start using RFID technology. They install readers at their cash registers and doors and put the RFID tags on all their merchandise. This saves them money and time, so to them it's not a big expense at all, it's actually a moneysaver. Now, let's say stores B and C do the same thing. Whenever you walk out of store A, the door readers will scan all the tags on your person. Some of them are items it recognizes as coming from store A (which it charges you for) but some of them (things you are wearing or carrying that came from stores B and C) it doesn't recognize, but logs the numbers anyway. This only becomes a problem if stores A, B and C all decide to lump their data together, or if they make their data public. Then somebody could go through the records of all three stores, make a list of the items customer D bought, and see when and where they re-entered a store. If this person sees that some of customer D's items walk into store B at 5:30 and then one of customer D's items walks into store C at 5:35, they can probably surmise that the one item that walked into store C was either a gift or had been lent. The idea would not be to follow your every move, but to find trends about you. If this person who's looking sees that D's items walk into store C every Sunday between 3 and 5pm, then they could wait at store C on Sunday between 3 and 5 for D. Depending on intentions, this could be very dangerous. They might not be able to tell where D is at any given time, but they could come up with a probability of when you go to stores A, B, and C based on the distribution of how many items go into the stores during a certain span of time. And it wouldn't be very expensive at all, since stores A, B, and C gladly ate up all the costs. At most, the person looking for the information would have to pay a fee to each store to look at their records. If enough stores and items implement the technology it would be possible to make up statistics about the shopping habits of any person in America, just by collecting and sorting the data from the stores.
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Post by Challenger on Feb 8, 2004 9:46:02 GMT -5
But why go to the bother.
You could do a better job with a guy outside each shop with a hidden camera.
Challenger
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 8, 2004 10:30:12 GMT -5
Because that would be more expensive. You'd need to pay the guy with the camera, or you'd need to pay to have the camera installed. You'd need to pay for the camera itself, and then you'd need to pay for another person to sit there and watch hours and hours of the footage for your suspect. And you'd need to do this at every store or place you suspect your person to go.
If you have a bunch of stores in the area where you think your suspect is, all you have to do is punch his name into the database. Then you take that data and run it through a statistical program. You don't need tons and tons of cash and equipment and man hours. All you need is a computer and access (legal or not) to the stores' databases.
Nothing has to be intentionally set up beforehand, because the stores have done it for you. You could decide today you wanted to stalk somebody, and within hours (depending on how easy it is to get the information) you could have statistical information about where he went in the last four months. With cameras, you'd need to set them up beforehand and watch for four months before you could have anywhere near as accurate information.
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Post by Challenger on Feb 8, 2004 11:03:02 GMT -5
But once again why go to the bother.
What possible gain could they have by following adverage Joe Bloggs arround?
If your whole objection is that they could use it to follow you round. (And I still think thats next to impossible) Then we had better knock all those satilites out of orbit because they are far more effective at tracking people than these RFID's ever could be. Could be tracking you now for all you know.
Challenger
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 8, 2004 13:03:44 GMT -5
Are you still talking about the government? Because that's not who I'm worried about. I'm worried about the ex-boyfriend who is more than a little miffed at the breakup. Or the boss who thinks his employee might be moonlighting. Or that guy you met on the internet that you now think is creepy and don't want to talk to ever again. It's people like that who I don't want knowing statistically where I am.
I'm not saying RFID tags are the only way to track a person, or even the best way. I'm just saying that they can be used for that purpose, and we need to think about this before every store has a reader and every item has a tag.
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