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Post by Loki3 on Apr 27, 2004 23:09:39 GMT -5
Not that this is probualy going to be taken well at all by a certain poster but here I go.
First of all.... I think everyone here agree that there are "Charities" out there that are in it for the profit and really dont care that much for the ones the profess to help....
However lets look at this in a REAL way.....
In my area... Mid Michigan USA we have seen thousands.... and I mean thousands of jobs go south of the border. We just heard that a large Mfr in the area was moving 3400 yes THIRTY FOUR HUNDRED jobs to Mexico...
Yes,.. Gal there is a need for charities, and yes Gal there are folks out there that frankly cannot find work. It is easy to sit back and say LAZINESS..... LAZY PEOPLE..... but the FACT is that there are alot of people out there that are hurting because large corporations are moving shop elsewhere........ THAT is NOT the fault of the worker.....
Ya see look at this for a second... Pretend you are....
Working for company XX... you have been there for 12 years... pulling in a respectable 40K a year.... well one day you are told effective on 2 weeks you are fired. We are moving you job down south... Sorry....
Now you have a problem. Your Home type and Mortgage... or your rent is based off a 40K a year income. Your vehicle is based off of a 40K a year income...... Kids clothes.... Insurance..... Food....... everything... is based off that 40 K a year income.... Now you have a problem,.... Yes McDonalds is hireing however you are still screwed......
This is not the fault of the employee...... this is not the fault of the kids.... this happened EVERYDAY. !!!!
Yes there are those that MILK the system... There are those that abuse the system.... and yes there are those that become professional welfare recipients.... However saying that there are more out there that are hard working folks that are frankly getting the shaft because the current administration and many before it are more concerened with the Political Lobby.... and what it can do for ther reelction coffers.. then the little guy who is getting it between the cheeks.........
You want to solve this problem, or atleast improve it by 90 percent... then Do away with NAFTA.... Start penalizing US companies that move there operations down south... Start enforcing trade tarrifs on foreig steel.... Synthetics... etc,..... that come into this country......
And most of all do away with the Lobby and the back room, smoky deals... money changin hands... political processes our politicians do every day.
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Post by Hussar on Apr 28, 2004 3:42:12 GMT -5
Heh, Y'know, it's funny. Ten years ago, or so, when Nafta first came in, lots of Canadians were against it. There was story after story about companies pulling up stakes and moving down to Mexico. Let's face it, given the corporate taxes in Canada, I can't really blame them.
Then, a few years later, the stories changed. Suddenly, all those companies that bolted south were creeping back into Canada and setting up shop again. Why? Because the average Canadian worker is far more educated and frankly a much more efficient worker than the average worker in Mexico. That may sound racist, but it is still true. Study after study showed it to be true. Yes, you could go to Mexico and pay someone 1/4 what you pay a Canadian. But, you get 1/4 of the value of the work.
So, we've already had our bit of shuffling with NAFTA. I guess it's your turn now.
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agamoto
Soldier
Greetings and salutations one and all!!
Posts: 239
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Post by agamoto on Apr 28, 2004 5:39:05 GMT -5
Personaly, I never said that there wern't people that realy do need help, I just mentioned that there were to many lozers that abuse the system, making it hard for others in true need. I hear about families with one person on welfare and the other with an under-the-table job that pays very well.
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Post by Merkuri on Apr 28, 2004 7:58:25 GMT -5
So, we've already had our bit of shuffling with NAFTA. I guess it's your turn now. Everybody keeps saying that the companies will eventually realize it's not worth it (communication problems, culture barriers, lower quality), but nobody has yet. I don't know about Canada, but here in the US it's all about min-maxing (the things we yell at our players about). The companies are trying to minimize input and maximze output so that they make the most profit possible. Apparently they think the loss in efficiency and quality is worth the huge profits they're now making. I think they've all stopped caring about quality a long time ago. It's only about the almighty buck. Did you know that ten years ago (or so, I foret the figures) that corporations and companies paid the majority of our US taxes? Ain't true anymore. Now the folks with three kids and barely enough cash to feed them are the ones paying most of the taxes. Corporations today hire boatloads of lawyers to find the loopholes and weasel their way out of paying. They often have two sets of figures that they've manipulated differently so that one shows a loss (these they show to the IRS) and one shows a profit (these they show to the shareholders). I'd have to ask my dad for the details because I forget, but there's some company (a bank, I think) that's leasing a sewage plant from a town in Germany. Why would a bank care about a sewage treatment plant halfway across the world? So that they can lease it back to the German town at a loss and get tax breaks. This trick is called LILO (lease in, lease out), and it's incredibly common among these huge corporations. All part of maximizing profits.
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Post by Hussar on Apr 28, 2004 19:12:58 GMT -5
That's hardly limited to large corporations Merk. Heck, tax evasion is the national sport up here. You guys don't get a lot of sympathy from me when it comes to taxes. I paid 42% income tax and 15% sales tax. That's not mentioning property tax, capital gains tax, pension, employment insurance, union dues and so on. And that was on 30 grand Canadian a year.
There's a reason I left the country.
As far as things being better in the past, well, that's a pipe dream. Companies were doing exactly the same thing 50 and 100 years ago. It's just that people know that they are doing it now.
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Post by Merkuri on Apr 28, 2004 20:31:42 GMT -5
From what I've heard, it's a fact that businesses today pay less taxes (in proportion to individuals) than they used to a few years ago. I don't know if they're trying harder or getting better at it or if the tax laws have just relaxed, but most of our taxes today come from individuals, where they used to come from businesses.
I'm trying to research this tidbit to find out if it's true, but I can't seem to track it down. I'll let you know if I find it.
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Post by Galadon on Apr 29, 2004 13:57:39 GMT -5
I try to look at things in a light of reality. Are there people out there having a hard time, yes. Do I mind them getting assistance in what they need to survive, no, (gasp, a conserative that helps people, now it can't be. Snicker, snicker). What bugs be is people that write story pretending that thousands of kids are starving. Just so they can line there pockets with money.
There are plenty of places to get food, problem is getting there. Here in Denver the are palces to give people bus fare and locations of food banks. The main problem is Jobs. Every one is scare to give people jobs thinking they are a terrorist.
And don't get me started on NAFTA. didn't like it when I fisrt heard of it, don't like it now. What I would do is add a tax on certain companies that move their jobs to another country just to pay less and get out of taxes.
If you need help and I can help, I don't mind. But if you give me a conjob and try to blow sunshine up my,,, then I'll tell you to get away from me. It doesn't bother me that people get food stamps, it does if you use false means to get them or get more.
And the biggest gripe is "NO" if your here illegal. you shouldn't get noting. I don't care what your story is. This is maybe one of the easiest countries to get in legally. If you can't do it leagal then why should we waste money on you.
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Post by Merkuri on Apr 30, 2004 12:01:56 GMT -5
Wikepedia is my friend. I did a little research and pulled up some interesting entries about the US economy. The Economy of the United StatesPoverty in the United StatesHere's a quote from that last one: Food SecurityEighty-nine percent of American households were food secure throughout the entire year 2002, meaning that they had access, at all times, to enough food for an active, healthy life for all household members. The remaining households were food insecure at least some time during that year. The prevalence of food insecurity rose from 10.7 percent in 2001 to 11.1 percent in 2002, and the prevalence of food insecurity with hunger rose from 3.3 percent to 3.5 percent. This report, based on data from the December 2002 food security survey, provides statistics on the food security of U.S. households, as well as on how much they spent for food and the extent to which food-insecure households participated in Federal and community food assistance programs. According to this, 11.1 percent of the US population in 2002 was (at one time or another) without enough food for a healthy lifestyle. The estimated US population on July 1, 2002 was 287,973,924 people (according to this table from the US Census Bureau). 11.1 percent of that is about 31,965,105. That's almost 32 million people who couldn't get enough food at one point or another during 2002. It also says that 3.5 percent of the US population was going hungry. That's about 10,079,087. Ten million people went hungry at one time or another in 2002. I don't know how many of those were children or how many could actually be considered starving, but I don't think that saying "thousands of children in the US are starving" is an unreasonable estimate. Actually if you assume just one percent of those ten million people are children then that means that there were a hundred thousand children going hungry in the US in 2002. Note that none of these sources are influenced by one political party or another. There's no propaganda here. I was actually impressed at the Wikepedia's articles' lack of bias one way or the other (if you can find a bias, let me know, but they did a good job of impartially telling each issue from the different sides).
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Post by Hussar on Apr 30, 2004 20:27:21 GMT -5
Umm, Gal, America is easy to get into? Not likely bud. I've got too many American friends with foreign wives and husbands for that to be true. The idea that you get instant citizenship when you get married is a myth. It takes almost two years or more to process the paperwork, and, during that time, your foreign spouse cannot reside within the US. Ain't that sweet. Now, I'm just going by what I was told by my American co-workers. Maybe it's because they married Koreans (I was living in Korea at the time), I dunno. But there were all sorts of hurdles just getting your wife or husband into the country. I don't know how these people beat the system. They must be a lot smarter than me.
But, your point is valid. If you are in the country illegally, you should not be entitled to anything other than immediete deportation. That I don't have a problem with. It's the illegals who make things difficult for anyone who actually tries to do it properly.
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Post by EK - Shadow of Death on Apr 30, 2004 23:05:39 GMT -5
Yep. My family was naturalized only a couple years ago, and we went through hell with the immigration board despite the fact that we are totally legal and effective members of society. It took them in excess of 2 years just to get the paperwork done, and involved engaging in many long-distance phone calls to and from the immigration board, etc.
I can understand why some immigrants decide to jump the border, but a law's a law, and our country is better off without it.
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Post by Galadon on May 2, 2004 10:42:26 GMT -5
I said easier to get in here. Staying for a long time than your visa states or becoming a citizen is different. But there are still plenty of people who come here.
And they are watching who marries just to get in this country, no it is not as easy as it use to be for this way to get in.
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Post by Hussar on May 2, 2004 22:12:40 GMT -5
Try getting a visa in America right now bud. It ain't easy. My wife's cousin is going to school in Nebraska. He did get his student visa, but it was a close thing, and he's Japanese. Never mind trying to do it if you're from an Islamic country.
Something I don't understand though. In every country in Asia that I've ever visited you go through Imigration on the way in and on the way out. In North America, you only pass Immigration on the way in. That's just stupid. In an age of computers, how hard would it be to link someone coming in with going out? If someone overstays their visa, a red light pops up at some government agency which lists the person's name, and address that they are staying. Now, in America, that everyone coming in is fingerprinted and photoed, how hard would it be to catch people overstaying visas? I have no idea why this isn't instituted in North America.
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Post by Galadon on May 3, 2004 8:40:31 GMT -5
Well I think they can check people better, without becoming a police state as some think. Plus it was slowly getting harder to get a visa over the years. After 9/11 they clamped down on entry here. But I believe after the passage of time people loosen up and go slack again.
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