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Post by Lord Swordhawk on Oct 6, 2003 14:51:04 GMT -5
A light crossbow is a lot heavier than a shortbow. According to the PH, a shortbow weighs 2 lbs (although the historical correct number is more like 600 grams - 1,2 lbs), a light crossbow weighs 7 lbs (historicaly 3,3-3,6 kg - about 7 lbs, so they got that one right)
A crossbow (70-80 cm) may be shorter than a shortbow (115-130 cm), but a crossbow is heavier by a factor of 6. In addition to that, you have also to take into concideration that it has a 50-60 cm wide bow mounted at a right angle at one end - it is basically a big T-shaped thing, 70+ cm tall and 50+ cm wide.
So, if you wanted to go climbing up walls and over rooftops, would you want to carry a 600 gram, 120 cm slender stick, or a 3,5 kilogram, 70 by 50 cm T-shaped ... thing?
I'd say the crossbow is the bigger and more bulky of the two weapons.
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Post by Hussar on Oct 7, 2003 3:43:39 GMT -5
I won't deny that a light crossbow is heavier than a shortbow. Of course not. Hmm, single stick vs stick and stock, not really hard to figure out. However, while a crossbow may be heavier, considering the bow part is only about 18 inches wide and the whole bow and stock is about 30, maybe 40 inches long, it could be slung behind your back easily. A short bow, while lighter, is still three to four feet long when strung. No matter about the weight, you simply can't hide it anywhere. No matter where you put it, it sticks out.
Weight is not really a consideration here. 7 pounds for a ranged weapon is nothing. It really isn't. An M16 fully loaded weighs in around 10 pounds or so and it's considered a VERY light weapon. Having used it, I would say that it is.
THe arguement shouldn't be about size really, it should be about ease of use. Think about it, you can't easily conceal a longsword either but thieves can use them. However, I can learn to shoot a crossbow in a week, maybe 2. After 4 years of competitive shooting in high school, I was barely passable as an archer (decent enough but certainly not professional).
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Post by Lord Swordhawk on Oct 7, 2003 6:17:35 GMT -5
Hussar, you are making it increasingly difficult to defend TSR's choice of weapons for thieves! That aside, this discussion reveals another weakness in the weapon prof. system - if long- and shortbows are much harder to learn than crossbows, why does it only cost one WP-slot to become proficient in either? Wouldn't it be logical to say that crossbows only cost one WP-slot, but bows cost two or three?
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Post by Draxy on Oct 7, 2003 7:44:27 GMT -5
This is why it is rightfully said that ALL the rules in every edition of this game are only guidelines. Each and every incarnation of this game (and most others) tells you that if you hit a rule that doesn't make sense or is poorly placed; "modify it or do away with it entirely".
In my game the light crossbow is only rare because it is relatively expensive. It may be the simplest missile weapon ever devised until the modern day and ANY idiot could use the bloody thing with a fair degree of success. In my game it is, if you don't have the proficiency to use it, a -1 for Magic Users and Non-classed characters and an "automatic proficiency" for everyone else.
It's point and shoot for pity sake. My son, when he was eight years old, the first time he shot one, put six out of seven bolts in the first two rings of a target at 30 feet. This is an EIGHT year old. It doesn't get any simpler than that.
Draxy
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Post by Draxy on Oct 7, 2003 7:50:38 GMT -5
Oh and by the way: I carried one for long enough to know, the M16, fully loaded with a 30 round magazine, weighs a touch under 8lbs.
Draxy
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Post by Hussar on Oct 7, 2003 7:55:29 GMT -5
Been a few years since I carried one. Can't believe I forgot how much it weighed. ;D Ah, I was a tanker so we didn't carry a C7 all that often. (C7 is the Canadian version of an M16, essentially the same weapon). Anything was better than the bloody FN we used to carry. Now that pig was HEAVY.
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agamoto
Soldier
Greetings and salutations one and all!!
Posts: 239
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Post by agamoto on Oct 7, 2003 14:13:21 GMT -5
Out of couriosity, what is the US equivlent to the FN? Also (to woho ever has a preference) did you like the M16A1 or the A2? I liked the A1 my self but some of the idiot I trained with need the A2 because they don't know how to let up on the trigger when on auto fire.
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Post by Hussar on Oct 8, 2003 0:13:50 GMT -5
I don't think you ever used an FN. Short for a 7.62 mm semi-automatic Fabrique Nationale (Browning) rifle. The FNC2 was capable of full automatic.
The C7 that we used we got in 1985 (about) so I'm not sure if it's an A1 or A2. It had a fire selector switch for semi or fully auto so maybe an A2. The Canadian version is slightly different (plastic fore grip, plastic magazines) to the American rifle.
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Post by Lord Swordhawk on Oct 8, 2003 3:47:27 GMT -5
Never used the C7, AK47, M16 or FN, but I _did_ drag around an AG3 (AutomatGevær-3, Norwegian version of the german G3 - Gewehr-3), a 7,62mm (isn't that .308, btw) weighing 4,2kg. Capable of both semiautomatic single-shot and full automatic (would empty the clip in a few seconds, tho).
I could dismantle it in 47 seconds too...
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Post by Hussar on Oct 8, 2003 3:53:10 GMT -5
Ooo, pretty bang stick. ;D
Yeah, 7.62 mm is .308 caliber. Pretty much the same thing. Far too much bang for what you need.
Anyway, back to the discussion at hand, I think it would be a pretty simple thing to allow thieves to take a prof in light crossbow or even heavy without it being an unbalacing event. Think about it, both weapons do about 1/4 the damage a short bow does (4d6 vs 1d4+1 for a heavy crossbow) so it's not such a big deal.
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agamoto
Soldier
Greetings and salutations one and all!!
Posts: 239
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Post by agamoto on Oct 8, 2003 11:47:54 GMT -5
Full auto would be the A1, three round burst would be the A2.
What is the crossbow that Porthos from "The Three Musketeers" be, it was only a little bigger than a pistol?
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Post by Draxy on Oct 8, 2003 15:46:19 GMT -5
There was a real, albeit rare, weapon similiar to that from the northern most Sinia Sultanites in the 9th century. I can't put my finger on what it was called right now, but it was almost the same thing except that the firing mechanism was a recessed button on the side of the stock. It was designed as an assassins/women's weapon and was never used much except with the quarrels tipped in poison.
Draxy
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Post by Chaos_Rider on Oct 20, 2003 14:33:06 GMT -5
On the question of hand crossbows:
Crossman, the manufacturer of CO2 pistols and air rifles (b.b. guns) does in fact make a small handheld crossbow that fires 5-6" bolts. I use one at my game table as a reference to the size of the hand crossbow.
I don't remember what it cost me, but they can be found at just about any department store that has a sporting goods section. In case you might want to check one out some time.
If your have ever seen a muzzle_loading flintlock pistol, that is about the size of a hand crossbow.
On the topic of the M16-A1 or A2, I prefer the A1 for the full auto, but I like the bolt lock and the forward assist on the A2. Also you overlooked the flash suppressor (a1) and the compensator (A2) And also the differing bayonet lug mounting positions at the retaining nut. Also I believe the pressure bypass on the gas tube was chamfered differently on the A2 to lower the recoil.
Sorry about the off topicness of the post, but I felt I had to add my 2 cents worth.
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Post by Hussar on Oct 21, 2003 4:50:35 GMT -5
Me Zipperhead. Gun no go bang. Make gun go bang. Ook.
In all honesty, I can say that I never cared that much. Now a C7 is fully auto and has a forward assist. Not sure what that makes it. We carried the C8, a carbine version of the C7. Lot easier to get in and out of the turret. ;D Certainly a lot better than the SMG's we used to have. (now that's going back some years)
Realistacally, I don't think it would affect your game too much to allow thieves to use crossbows. 'course, why anyone would use a crossbow in 2e vs any sort of bow is beyond me, but hey, more power to you.
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Post by Draxy on Oct 21, 2003 16:47:59 GMT -5
In basic 2E I agree. But they fixed the crossbow problem to a great extent in Combat and Tactics.
Draxy
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