Has D&D 3.X killed off AD&D?

[Omote]

While there still are many players of all forms of AD&D, there has been a dramatic loss of us still who play "by the old rules."

I have seen old-time games transfer over and younger players look at AD&D in disgust as if we were simpletons, playing and inferior game.

What is so great about d20, OVER "old-school" AD&D?

Has 3rd edition KILLED off AD&D? Is AD&D soon to be found in the graveyard of games past?

..........................Omote

[Hussar]

Well, in all honesty, what does it for me in 3e is the fact that my arguements with players have been reduced to zero. Maybe it was the players I had, I don'T know, but every 2e game I played in, in every session, there would always be some debate over some vaguely worded rule. There was little or no support from TSR regarding this. No rules clarifications, no FAQ's Never. Now, when a disagreement does arise around my table, it usually takes about as much time as it takes to open the book and point to the relavent rule. In fact, most disagreements have occured because we don't have the massive experience that we had in 2e in constantly looking up rules.

The other thing that I've been very impressed about is that d20 products have been very, very compatible. Gone are the days where a specialty priest could cast every spell, wizard and cleric, have d8 hp, and use a Druid's XP table. Now, it is just much simpler and smoother.

[Loki3]

I think that with all new products come people that want to have and play the latest thing out.

I actually have seen in my area the oppposite. More and more 3E people are going back to 1E. Because of the CORE experience of it.

As far as arguments,.... the 3E rules are not the same as 1E they do ultra clarify alot. I will have to give it that. But it all boils down to one thing in regards to 1E.

1st Edition AD&D was just that. a 1st Edition, thus it WILL be rough around the edges, and at the time it was developed we didnt have the aid of massive computers that could spell check and grammar edit all in one swoop, And keep in mind at that time TSR was a differeant place than WOTC.

But those people like myself that have grown up with it learned long ago that one of the appealing parts of 1st Edition AD&D was that a DM could better mold his game because he was forced to clarify and make certain rules himself. Now thats just an opinion of an old player like myself.

Now I will say I have played 3E D&D, and I really dont care much for the D20 system............however I will say in the same breath that the D20 system was awesome in the respect that it is an open system and thus makes a better more cohesive RPG experience across the board for all players.

Now in regards to player arguments and Rules Lawyers.... I will say this. A good DM and what I mean by a good DM is a PREPARED DM really shouldnt have this problem. Ya see AD&D gave th DM alot of lattitude in the game and how he presented his gaming experience to his players. Players who yank out a DM book and say see on page X it sais.........first off shouldnt even have a DM book at the table. No need for them to have it. And when someone quoted a rule, or tried to argue with me............ I quoted a certain DM I have seen many many times at Gen-Con and the old Winterfest's that used to be held........

And I quote.....

What you think I am not playing by the rules.?? I AM THE RULES.

Now anyone want to challenge the morality or the properness of that staement should know what DM I am quoting..... before saying HE is wrong. hehehehe

So in answer FINALLY I know..... to the original question, NO 3E or 3.5 has not killed off AD&D one day I do beleive it will have smothered it into obscurity,... but then again look at RPG's 30 years from now the forum title will be......

HAS 6.0 KILLED OFF 3.5?

[Hussar]

Typical fatheat Gygax response.

Arguements around the table have NOTHING to do with being prepared. Sometimes the player will try to do something you didn't expect. Good players will do this often. I like having very concrete rules that actually make logical sense. Sue me.

[Loki3]

Sometimes the player will try to do something you didn't expect. Good players will do this often. I like having very concrete rules that actually make logical sense. Sue me.

Hussar....

I think one of the coolest, most fun things that can happen in a game is for a PC or a group of PC's to do something that throws the DM for a loop. When this happens it tests the DM's ability to cope on the fly, and also lets the DM know that his players are actually thinking and "role playing".........

As far as concrete rules, maybe you misunderstand me and my ramblings.......

one of the appealing parts of 1st Edition AD&D was that a DM could better mold his game because he was forced to clarify and make certain rules himself. Now thats just an opinion of an old player like myself.

and

however I will say in the same breath that the D20 system was awesome in the respect that it is an open system and thus makes a better more cohesive RPG experience across the board for all players.

In other words it's all about preference....... You like 3.0 so do I, but I like 1.0 better.

So is 1.0 BETTER than 3.0 no not really, it is preferred by this poster over 3.0 that is all. One treads dangerously when one asks "what is BETTER" maybe one should ask this question instead.

What do YOU like better.
or
What are the Pros and Cons of 1.0 to 3.5

[Omote]

Let me throw a wrench in this for a sec. I personally think that 2.X (in any of it's incantations) is the better of the three!

Don't get me wrong, I do like 3.X, but i really don't consider it Dungeons & Dragons. The system is just too different. Especially 3.5. Look at what the deisgners did with 3.5: All (or most of) the spells durations have been "tuned down" to either rounds or minutes. This was not in any way done to facilitate Role-Playing, it was done becuase spells are now soley a mechanic of the game "engine." the problem I have with 3.X is the fact that the "heart" of the game is "smaller" then in the other editions. There are SOOOO many rules, that the emphisis seems no longer to be on RPing, but how well the product works as a game. Tha is the reason (IMO) that 3.X is NOT Dungeons & Dragons. The soul of the game seems lost... Now, any good DM can get the soul back into anygame, no matter what you are playing...

Now, 1st ed is just a bit too rough around the edges for my part at times. Maybe that is why I like 2.X. (with the exception of the crazy STR rules?!?!? Anyways.

......................Omote

[Draxy]

Has it killed it off? God no. AD&D is the stronger product. Just look at the forums here, at PAD&D.com and damn near everyhwere else except Hasbro's own site and you'll see that although AD&D has been out of print for more than half a decade it still gets nearly as much talk as the product that is being supported.

Over at Planet, which pushes third edition hard, the present count, as of this writing was 2nd edition: 10,454 posts and 3rd edition: 18,704 posts. That is far less than a 2 to 1 ratio for the game that "everybody plays" compared to the game that's long, long out of print. That says something. Here it's even more drastic, albeit we are a new forum, in that the old out of print game has a LARGER following in numbers than the present game. That too says something.


Draxy

[Hussar]

You realize that over 3000 of those posts are a single topic - the palassassin debate. Take out that rediculous piece of crap and there are very few posts for 2nd.

[Loki3]

Ya made a point for me Hussar..............

Take out that rediculous piece of crap and there are very few posts for 2nd.

Juala.......................

You think it is stupid. But there are 3000 posts from people who seem to differ. Albiet of the 3000 post, 2500 of them are probually the same people yapping but still alot of debate and thought into something.

I think I can offer in once simple comment a simple solution to this debate.

AD&D, D&D 1.0 2.0 3.0 3.5 or whatever home cobbled version a person plays, is to them what they make of it. Some will argue edition A is better then Edition B, but what it boils down to is what the individual likes and what that persons group enjoys.

I would be wrong, and I have been wrong to say 1st edition is better then 3rd, it isnt better. It is just a more enjoyable edition for me to play. Thus I play it.

[Lord Swordhawk]

Loki3 said:

I quoted a certain DM I have seen many many times at Gen-Con and the old Winterfest's that used to be held........
And I quote.....
What you think I am not playing by the rules.?? I AM THE RULES.
Now anyone want to challenge the morality or the properness of that staement should know what DM I am quoting..... before saying HE is wrong. hehehehe

Any DM can say that with authority. I quote from the introduction to the 2nd ed. DMG:

The DM's "active hand" extends even to the rules. [...] In short, follow the rules as they are written if doing so improves your game. But by the same token, break the rules only if doing so improves your game.

Quote that to the players.

Hm, this was supposed to be a thread about 3.x vs 1st/2nd...

I think 1st and 2nd edition eventually will fade away - not because they are inferior, but because they are out of print. Trying to start a new group now in 2nd edtion is difficult unless you can locate players who have the books, or are prepared to lend out your own. It is much easier to ask them to buy the 3rd ed PH which is in the shop, than to track down old copies of 2nd ed. books - and I imagine 1st ed is even harder.

[Draxy]

Hussar said:

You realize that over 3000 of those posts are a single topic - the palassassin debate. Take out that rediculous piece of crap and there are very few posts for 2nd.

I realize that it was less than 500 posts in truth and that this is just sour grapes anyway. Take a gander into the 3e forum and you'll see just as much idiocy in some of those topics and debates.

Draxy

[Hussar]

Dude, go back and look again. Trust me. In one of those debates, there was over several hundred PAGES of posts, never mind posts themselves.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. You have your preference and I have mine. I think that after all this time it may be better simply to agree to disagree.

Apologies, Palassassin MK II is found in the Dungeon Masters section, not on the 2e forum. It runs 150 pages and deals almost exclusively with 2e paladins being assassins. Never mind MkIII, MkIV and numerous other threads to the point where any new palassassin thread was immedietely locked by the mods.

My point is, because 2e is so vague, a debate could actually last that long. In the 1e or 3e case, the debate was over in about two lines: Can paladins be assassins? Nope. End of story.

[Draxy]

My point is, because 2e is so vague, a debate could actually last that long. In the 1e or 3e case, the debate was over in about two lines: Can paladins be assassins? Nope. End of story.

Hi Hussar,

Good Gods man, you can't really believe that! In 1E, in 3E, in 3.5E, in XE to the nth, in any game ever written, if you get someone who has a pet theory they can argue it for any interminable amount of time simply the way that the PalAssassin arguement was run: By not accepting anything other than own opinion as being an opinion that has value.

Too, VERY CLEARLY stated in the Paladin's Handbook are several reasons why it is impossible unless you TRY not to understand what is being said.

Draxy

[Loki3]

I think ya tread dangeous ground whenever questions such as what is "better" are asked.

You get from AD&D whatever version you play, exactly what you put into it. Some like adapting the rules, some like the rules clearly spelled out.

Some DM's suck. Some DM's are great.
Can a Paladin be an Asassin, not in his game, maybe in mine.

What appealed to me as a youngster when I first cracked the box was after I took the time to really learn the rules, I loved the fact that they were not really "Rules" They were guidelines to my imagination to explore.....................

D&D simply put will allways be around. XBox's. PSII's. Nintendo, they all are fads............ they come and go........ yet for decades D&D in its various forms, INCLUDING the original is still played around tables all over.

I respect everyones opinion here. I do disagree with there ideas sometimes but I still respect those same ideas. The key to remember here is that it really doesnt matter wich is "better" we all have computers here, yet we all still love to play something with no blinking lights. No flashy music, no 1024x768 resolution.

We play with Books, Pen and paper.

HOOOYYAAHHHH

[Omote]

Loki3 said:

We play with Books, Pen and paper.

HOOOYYAAHHHH

Indeed, and well said.

.....................Omote