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Post by Draxy on Oct 27, 2003 9:54:15 GMT -5
Hussar, in a 3e thread, got me thinking about something that I've avoided thinking about for a goodly while.
2e WAS all too often considered a munchy game compared to others because of the top end of the spectrum character types with 18's and how bloody powerful they are. Too, I've noticed in threads here in this forum a "... put your 18 in Intelligence" line in a post about surviving 1st level as a Mage by Lewdie as though it was a done deal that you'd start with atleast one of them.
When this game was designed it was with the idea in mind of characters made according to one of the standard dice rolling convnetions listed in the PHB. 18's, never mind 19's or *shudder* even higher, were supposed to be rarer than hens teeth. The game was designed with that ideal in mind, right? This is why the Gauntlets of Ogre Power are such a wowser magical find, yes?
So, the question is, what die rolling conventions do you all use?
Draxy
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Post by EK - Shadow of Death on Oct 27, 2003 10:50:38 GMT -5
I like to split up character creation randomly amongst my players. I use method III x2, method V x2, and method VI x2. That way, I get a wide range of characters who not only have different scores, but also different distributions, which makes for a better game.
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Post by Draxy on Oct 27, 2003 11:12:36 GMT -5
Since I never answered this here myself, we use 4d6 rolled seven times, drop the lowest roll (or the roll of your choice really, though I've never seen anyone drop a higher roll), then drop the lowest die (or again, really favored die, but with the same provisoes as above) and arrange the scores as you want them.
It produces just about anything except Paladin's every time out and let's the players do pretty much as they will, but without unbalancing the game concept.
I like EK's way too, except that it takes so bloody long to roll up what amounts to six characters.
Draxy
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Post by EK - Shadow of Death on Oct 27, 2003 19:41:04 GMT -5
Yea, but with electronic dice rollers, that makes it a lot easier.
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Post by EK - Shadow of Death on Oct 27, 2003 19:42:02 GMT -5
I also wanted to mention that my personal style is that I like to have the player's choose a class, race, and/or concept upon which they're going to build their character, and only then roll for ability scores. I don't like to put so much faith in the dice so early in the game, especially when there are alternatives. This is also one of the reasons I switched to WoD.
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Post by Hussar on Oct 28, 2003 7:58:52 GMT -5
Draxy, you're telling me that out of seven tries, dropping the lowest out of four dice, you RARELY see 18's? I'm sorry, I simply do not believe you. With that many dice rolled, you will get an 18 just about every time. I went over to Irony online dice www.irony.com/igroll.htmland tried out your method a few times. This is what I came up with out of six tries. Roll 1: 5, [1], 2, 2 = 9. Roll 2: 4, [2], 3, 2 = 9. Roll 3: 4, 6, 6, [3] = 16. Roll 4: 5, [3], 6, 5 = 16. Roll 5: 5, 6, [2], 4 = 15. Roll 6: [4], 4, 6, 4 = 14. Roll 7: 3, [2], 3, 4 = 10. Roll 1: 6, 6, [5], 6 = 18. Roll 2: [3], 5, 6, 3 = 14. Roll 3: 6, [1], 6, 6 = 18. Roll 4: [2], 2, 4, 4 = 10. Roll 5: [2], 3, 2, 5 = 10. Roll 6: [1], 5, 4, 3 = 12. Roll 7: [1], 2, 6, 5 = 13. Roll 1: 3, [2], 4, 4 = 11. Roll 2: [2], 3, 6, 5 = 14. Roll 3: 4, [3], 5, 4 = 13. Roll 4: 6, 6, 2, [1] = 14. Roll 5: [1], 1, 2, 4 = 7. Roll 6: [1], 6, 2, 4 = 12. Roll 7: 3, 5, [2], 6 = 14. Roll 1: 6, [1], 5, 5 = 16. Roll 2: [1], 5, 2, 4 = 11. Roll 3: [1], 2, 5, 1 = 8. Roll 4: 3, 5, 3, [2] = 11. Roll 5: 2, [1], 2, 1 = 5. Roll 6: 6, [1], 2, 4 = 12. Roll 7: [3], 6, 3, 4 = 13. Roll 1: 5, 5, 6, [1] = 16. Roll 2: 6, 5, [2], 6 = 17. Roll 3: 6, [3], 6, 6 = 18. Roll 4: 4, 2, 3, [1] = 9. Roll 5: 4, 4, 6, [2] = 14. Roll 6: 6, 6, [4], 6 = 18. Roll 7: 6, 6, 6, [3] = 18. Roll 1: 2, [1], 6, 6 = 14. Roll 2: 5, 5, [4], 4 = 14. Roll 3: 4, 2, 2, [1] = 8. Roll 4: 2, 4, [1], 2 = 8. Roll 5: 4, 5, 5, [2] = 14. Roll 6: [1], 5, 3, 3 = 11. Roll 7: 6, [1], 3, 4 = 13. Well, let's see. Out of six tries, I got 4 without 18's, 1 with 2 eighteens and 1 with 3 eighteens. Gee, and you are telling me you never see 18's.
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Post by Draxy on Oct 28, 2003 13:12:13 GMT -5
Nice resource man! Let's see how I do!
Roll 1: 6, [2], 6, 2 = 14. Roll 2: 6, 6, 3, [1] = 15. Roll 3: 5, 4, [1], 6 = 15. Roll 4: [1], 6, 2, 5 = 13. Roll 5: 6, 5, [2], 2 = 13. Roll 6: [1], 4, 2, 1 = 7. Roll 7: [1], 3, 3, 5 = 11. Hmmm,
Roll 1: 4, 5, 5, [2] = 14. Roll 2: [1], 4, 4, 3 = 11. Roll 3: 5, 6, [1], 1 = 12. Roll 4: 3, 5, 6, [2] = 14. Roll 5: 6, 4, 6, [3] = 16. Roll 6: [2], 6, 6, 3 = 15. Roll 7: 5, 2, [1], 2 = 9. ahhhhgh,
Roll 1: 5, 4, [1], 5 = 14. Roll 2: 6, 4, 4, [1] = 14. Roll 3: [1], 4, 5, 1 = 10. Roll 4: 6, 6, 5, [4] = 17. Roll 5: [2], 4, 2, 2 = 8. Roll 6: 4, [3], 3, 6 = 13. Roll 7: 5, 4, 3, [2] = 12. Still none... damn... what am I doing wrong here?
Roll 1: 3, 2, 3, [1] = 8. Roll 2: 5, 4, 3, [2] = 12. Roll 3: 5, 5, [1], 1 = 11. Roll 4: [1], 3, 5, 3 = 11. Roll 5: 4, [1], 6, 2 = 12. Roll 6: 4, [2], 5, 2 = 11. Roll 7: 3, 3, 5, [1] = 11. EUCK! My fourth compared to your fifth is pitiful! The big roll is a 12? Woof, Sir Alsoran.
Roll 1: 5, 3, 6, [2] = 14. Roll 2: 4, [3], 6, 3 = 13. Roll 3: [2], 5, 6, 6 = 17. Roll 4: 3, 6, 6, [2] = 15. Roll 5: 2, 3, [1], 6 = 11. Roll 6: [4], 4, 5, 4 = 13. Roll 7: [1], 3, 1, 4 = 8. Nice. Especially compared to The amazing average man from directly above, but STILL no 18 after five rolls. Well, one more time!
Roll 1: [1], 6, 6, 5 = 17. Roll 2: [3], 6, 6, 6 = 18. Roll 3: 5, [2], 5, 4 = 14. Roll 4: [1], 4, 4, 5 = 13. Roll 5: [1], 1, 1, 4 = 6. Roll 6: 4, 5, [2], 5 = 14. Roll 7: 3, [1], 3, 5 = 11. HEY, I got one! That's kind of a relief.
It means that one character, in a party of six characters can roll for exceptional strength if his player wants a fighter.
Let's roll that exceptional strength roll.
Roll 1: 38
Hey, not bad, our fighter has a 18.38 strength. He's probably one of the strongest men in a good sized kingdom... certainly he's (or she's, since it's under 18.50) one of the strongest warriors in that kingdom.
Ok, so ... One 18 out of six rolled characters, which is still, statisticly, a bit better than average. You're obviously a die rolling God of Good Fortune. First character, highest die roll is a 15. Second character, highest die roll is a 16, third and fifth it's a 17 (Paladin material) while for the fourth it's a 12. Twelve! Ouch! And numero lasto gets the mythical average character stat. Finally on character number 6 we get a single eighteen rolled BY DROPPING the lowest die and by rolling seven times for six stats.
Now, since there are seven rolls for six stats for each character that means that one eighteen (the easy way) was rolled out of 42 rolls.
Yep, it IS possible to get an 18 legitimately, which I never said was impossible... but as we see, it's a LOW degree of probability.
Still, even number four, whom I made fun of since I've seen more of his sort than the multiple 18 sort of character by orders of magnitude is not a bad "actual" character. He's going to need cunning to become a legend, but he can get there.
Hey, anyone here familiar with LoTR? Boromir was a big, strong man, but no where did they say that he was as strong as an ogre. Not even close. Aragorn, in AD&D 2e terms, needs to have no stat above a 15 or so to be well protrayed.
The group of six characters above would be, maybe, slightly better stated than the average I saw in my games.
I NEVER saw a group with stats like the one that Hussar just rolled. Ever! But that's ok. Those monster stats aren't neccesary in 2e, since it isn't all about how much damage you can do with a longsword to an orc.
THAT is how 2e was set up though. Not every character needs to be Hercules or Morlaenius. Indeed it's far better for them not to be on a number of levels, both for the players and for the DM.
Draxy
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Post by Draxy on Oct 28, 2003 13:14:57 GMT -5
Oh, and you got two out of six with an 18, not four out of six.
Draxy
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Post by Merkuri on Oct 28, 2003 16:56:10 GMT -5
Okay boys, let's do this the smart way... with STATISTICS. The number of different ways of getting a three sixes on four dice is (6 x 4) = 24. 6 6 6 * 6 6 * 6 6 * 6 6 * 6 6 6 * means any number, so for each of these possibilities is actually 6 different ways. The total number of dice combinations is 6^4 (six to the fourth power) which equals 1296. So there's a 24 in 1296 chance to get an 18 = 0.0185185. I'm gonna cheat from here... Using the formula I found on hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/math/disfcn.html#c2 the probability of rolling one 18 in 7 sets of rolls is 0.34917531220243067, which is about 7/20. Seven out of twenty times will you roll up a character with one 18 stat. The probability of having 2 18s is 0.00595. That's less than 1 in a hundred.
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Post by Hussar on Oct 28, 2003 20:43:48 GMT -5
I never was very good at stats. Hated that class. BTW, Draxy, that was 4 WITHOUT 18's. Learn to read please. And, also BTW, the damage bonus of an 18/30 and an 18/50 is the same. It doesn't matter. I picked 18/50 just because it was halfway. Strongest men in the kingdom? Are you on crack? Look at Merkuri's post. The chance for an 18 is 1 in 3 per characters rolled up. (Actually slightly better since it's 7 in 20). 1 in 3!! This is hardly rare.
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Post by Draxy on Oct 29, 2003 4:36:11 GMT -5
No crack here old boy. The average person in the kingdom isn't generated on 4d6, 7times, dropping lowest and lowest. THAT is reserved for the would be hero.
In point of fact there probably aren't one in fifty thousand folks who qualify to be at the epitomy of the genetic potential for their race.... which is what an 18 represents. A fair sized medieval kingdom probably numbered less than fifty thousand so... you do the math.
Again too, how many really good sword and sorcery stories had the main charcter as the strongest or smartest or quickest guy around? Damned few of the ones I've read. Even Conan would run into people who were stronger (Baal Pteor for one) or faster (the wizard in the court of the Mekuri **sp?** for one) or better warriors (the Captain/General of an opposing army he faced in single combat against and who fought him to a standstill even though Conan was younger, stronger and faster). It ISN'T neccesary for the PC's to be the left testicle of their favorite deity to be heroic in nature. In fact, most authors agree it detracts from the story because you can't indentify as well with the proponent in such a case.
Draxy
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Post by Draxy on Oct 29, 2003 4:42:04 GMT -5
Good god! Look at those numbers.
Hussar, you rolled what is closer to a one in two hundred character with the guy with two 18's and a one in more than one thousand charcter with that guy with three 18's. You ARE the electronic die rolling God of Good Fortune. I don't even want to thi9nk of what the chances were against getting two multiple 18's characters out of six rolls. It staggers the imagination. We need to get you to Vegas QUICK!
Draxy
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Post by Hussar on Oct 29, 2003 6:20:23 GMT -5
LOL, it was pretty bloody lucky of me wasn't it. Heh.
The thing is, even with straight 3d6, you chance of an 18 is 1 in 216, and given 6 stats, your chances are back down to 1 in 36. That's not too bad. Certainly a LOT lower than your 1 in 50000. Hey, calling the number on roulette is 1 in 36 and it does come up fairly regularly.
I would have thought you would like 3e better based on this. Really. Think about it. In 2e, there is basically no difference between a character with 6 10's and 6 14's, never mind the fact that there is a 24 point spread between the two. In 3e, a character with 6 14's is perfectly acceptable and, dare I say it, slightly on the powerful side. A character doesn't need to have any really exceptional scores to be playable. A 2e character without any exceptional scores, is playable, true, but, no one wants to. Or, at least very few people want to. A character with 6 12's is actually fun to play in 3e.
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Post by Draxy on Oct 29, 2003 11:23:04 GMT -5
Oh come on man. Any DM with a brain doesn't roll stats for the average peasant in the fields. He/she uses a bit of common sense and protrays him/her in whatever way fits the story (if the PC's interact with him at all) and doesn't worry about his/her stats. Do you really roll stats for every NPC your people encounter? Well, with your die rolling that probably produces the population of Asgard on average so it might be different for some. Now, how many people in 3e have you seen with stats that are even nearly as close to average as in 2e. Let's check the ones at PAD&D in the characters sections. 3e just plain and simple DOES lend itself more to run away bull dookey characters who are half-dragon mega-assassin/god eaters. Draxy
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Post by Merkuri on Oct 29, 2003 15:30:47 GMT -5
Good god! Look at those numbers. Hussar, you rolled what is closer to a one in two hundred character with the guy with two 18's and a one in more than one thousand charcter with that guy with three 18's. You ARE the electronic die rolling God of Good Fortune. I'm not really getting involved in this discussion besides to point out facts. Computers are very bad with random numbers. No number you get from a computer is truly random. Basically how most random number generators work is they take some "seed" value, perform some horrendous math equation on it, and that's your random value. You get the best results by taking some semi-random value as your seed, such as the current time of day. But if you pass in the same seed you get the same value. Computer random numbers are notorious for their lack of true randomness. Although, dice aren't completely random either. The weights of the sides are different because of the weight of the paint or grooves for the different numbers. Of course, dice are a lot more "accurate" than computers, since you need a huuuuge number of dice rolls (somewhere in the thousands) to see the pattern.
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