Power Plays

[Hussar]

Just to toss on my munchkin hat for a second, what are some cool things you've done with your character's concepts (feats and such) to boost your effectiveness?

I thought a good one is for a fifth level druid to take a level in rogue. That way, when the druid shape changes into a big cat, he can get 5 sneak attacks in a single round.

[Deyv]

Here's one for Wizards and Sorcerers.

(While hasted in 3rd ed) Feather fall yourself, move over to a really[/b] big rock, then dimension door yourself to about 70 or 80 feet in the air above an enemy. The Rock crushes the enemy, while you fall slowly to the ground since the feather fall can be cast in advance.

[Hussar]

That actually doesn't require haste since Feather Fall is cast as a free action. But cool idea.

[Merkvah]

+1 Mighty Composit Longbow of Distance + Far Shot feat = 1st Range incriment of 330 feet. -4 penalty to shoot 990 feet. =)

Talk about a sniper!

Merk

[Hussar]

Sweet. That's the kind of stuff I'm looking for.

In 3.0, always, always, always carry potions of shield. Shield is a cover bonus, so it stacks with just about EVERYTHING. That means that Joe fighter with his full plate and shield gets an additional 7 points of AC for a minimum of 10 rounds for what, 50 gp? He'll never get hit.

Another thing to always use - Tanglefoot bags. These little puppies are great. Use enough of them and the bad guy can't move at all and you sit back and pepper him with arrows. Most critters don't have a ranged attack. ANYTIME you can deny them movement, you've got it made.

[Draxy]

Hussar said:

Sweet. That's the kind of stuff I'm looking for.

In 3.0, always, always, always carry potions of shield. Shield is a cover bonus, so it stacks with just about EVERYTHING. That means that Joe fighter with his full plate and shield gets an additional 7 points of AC for a minimum of 10 rounds for what, 50 gp? He'll never get hit.

Another thing to always use - Tanglefoot bags. These little puppies are great. Use enough of them and the bad guy can't move at all and you sit back and pepper him with arrows. Most critters don't have a ranged attack. ANYTIME you can deny them movement, you've got it made.

And 3rd edition isn't built around the idea of the power gamer from Hell?

Draxy

[Hussar]

Well Draxy, since you brought it up. Considering that 3e creatures are far and away more deadly than their 2e counterparts, and that combat is FAR more leathal, getting an edge in 3e takes slightly more intelligence than simply using a long sword and short sword and pumping out 40 points of damage a round. (Vs larger than mansized Longsword d12, Shortsword d8, 18/50 strength +3/weapon, specs in longsword (3/2 attacks at 1st level and +2 damage for longsword adds up to a grand total of 40 points of damage at first level and wouldn't even be considered a munchkin character. The absolute most a 1st level 3e character can do is 26 points and then only once per day (1/2 orc barbarian with a 20 strength raging). )

[Draxy]

I've run both 2e and 3e extensively enough to say it straight out: horse manure!

A properly run 2e dragon, just as a single for instance, compared to the same beast in the context of 3e, is twice as deadly as the 3e beastie can even try to be.

The same holds true of nearly everything except the various humanoid races, which 3e did finally give the official up grades to that every DM worth his salt (and who has been around that long) gave to them before 2e even was released.

In 2e one has to plan carefully, not just run to the local alchemist and load up on one shot gimmicks that, by your own admission, turn it into a turkey shoot. That has all the appeal of a Xbox RPG... which is probably what they were shooting for when they designed things in 3e anyway.

Draxy

[Draxy]

Hussar said:

getting an edge in 3e takes slightly more intelligence than simply using a long sword and short sword and pumping out 40 points of damage a round. (Vs larger than mansized Longsword d12, Shortsword d8, 18/50 strength +3/weapon, specs in longsword (3/2 attacks at 1st level and +2 damage for longsword adds up to a grand total of 40 points of damage at first level and wouldn't even be considered a munchkin character.

First, what system are using to generate stats? I've played for more than a quarter decade and seen less than 30 legitimately rolled 18's (out of hundreds, about two hundred and fifty, of characters made by players in my games) in character creation using the 4d6 drop your lowest set them as you like them method that is designed to give PC's a big edge.

By the statistical probabilities that is MORE often than it should happen, but not by too much. Soooo, let's talk about being probably munchy right from the start with that eighteen-fifty strength.

So... now we discover that we are starting with THE superman of a large campaign unless the die have been cheated. Unless he's gotten inordinately lucky, too lucky to be easily explainable by real rolls, he's probably also got some weaknesses elsewhere that make up for it ... and he MUST be a Fighter.

Ok, superman can, if he wishes, spend ALL of his weapon proficiencies that way, and is useless as tits on a boar hog against the guy on the other side of the open pit trap who's winging spells at him unless he's a demi-human Fighter something else... which means he has less hit points than the average straight Fighter has... and thus less staying power.

Too, he's going to have big ol' minuses to hit anything if he's going with two weapon style unless he's got another unholy high number in Dex AND has spenmt a proficiency slot to lessen, not negate, just lessen his penalties some.

Now, we've got the ultra ubermensch of the campaign, we've straight jacketed him by spending all of his initial Weapon slots on two swords which he is at minuses to use any time he uses them together, charging through the average field in the average plain or forest at the average guy, in no armor, but with a bow and a few hundred coins to drop on Tanglefoot bags.

Who's going to get their clock cleaned? Might it be Mr Ubermensh the greatest roller in the history of history? Please!


Draxy

[Hussar]

Whatever you say Draxy.

Can't you at least be original in your criticisms? Hmm, plays like a video game, gee that's not something I've seen before. Wow, original and crushing criticism.

Let's compare critters shall we? A 2e orc. Max damage in melee=10 (Two handed sword, incredibly slow initiative, likely gets waxed by players before he moves). 3e Orc. Max damage 13. Able to drop ANY character in 1 round.

Troll CR5. 2e, is capable of about 26 points of damage in 1 round. 3e, capable of over 50. Again, able to drop any character except a barbarian in 1 round.

Cloud Giant CR 11. 2e is capable of about 30 damage in a round. 3e is capable of over 100 points in a single round. Again, able to kill just about any character in 1 round. Nothing in 2e, other than dragons could even compare to this kind of damage, and this is considered a mid to high level opponent.

You compare just about any critter from 2e to 3e and the 3e critter is FAR more powerful.

Just a point about going to the alchemist. Like in 2e you weren't walking around with barrrels full of greek fire. Hmmm. 3d6 damage, no save. Gee, never saw anyone hauling that around.

The character I lined up was pretty much a standard 2e fighter. I DM'd for just as long as you did and pretty much ANYONE who played a fighter had an 18 percentile strength. Hell, even in the modules, pretty much everyone had that. Look at Dragonlance. Other than Tanis, ALL of the fighters had a percentile strength. Hmm.

I really get my nose out of joint when these supposed 2e elitists get on their pedastal. This is a 3e forum, asking a 3e question. Nothing about 2e was mentioned here until you had to drop in and stir things up. Just because you are incapable of learning a new game, doesn't mean that the rest of us have to be stuck playing an inferior, incomprehensible, vaguely written, poorly tested, and just plain backwards game.

[Draxy]

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

The 2e orc, which is still a humanoid, which I did say that 3e has finally upgraded (Do you actually read any of these responses before you go off on them?) can kill a fifteenth level Fighter in 2e in one shot by using a bit of cunning. Have you ever heard of "drop the rock"?

Cloud Giant... humanoid. Troll...humanoid.

Too, atleast in 2e not every other idjit running around had an uncle who was a dragon. That's not slightly telling either.

If the 2e orc is being killed by a character of roughly the same class level as the Orc's hit die level before it moves, as you put it, then the DM is a moron who is not using even a small proportion of the checks and balances of 2e. he's not doing what it tells him in the DMG to be sure that he does... which is allowing to the "monsters" the same advantages as the PC's.

Too, Greek Fire in barrels? No saving throws? Where do you get this nonsense?

When was the last time you threw a barrel of anything at a foe? Or do all your "monsters" just sit around as you ladle it out for ten minutes not wondering where that god awful smell is coming from.

And 3d6 with NO SAVE? Where did you see that?

Draxy

[Hussar]

Last time I checked, greek fire did 2d6 in the first round and 1d6 in the second. I'll admit, I don't have my 2e books on my, but I believe that's correct.

Since when was a giant or a troll a humanoid? Since when did charm person or hold person which only affects humanoids affect trolls or giants. Before you start arguing, perhaps you should go back and check the definitions again. Last time I checked, anything over about 3 base hd or so wasn't humanoid anymore.

To give another example then. A girillion, also CR 5 is capable of almost 100 points of damage. My point was, that any 3e creature is FAR more powerful than any 2e creature.

My point is, the 3e creature doesn't need the DM to set up the players in order to lay a smack down. The only way a 2e orc without a character class could realistically harm a higher level character was to, as you say, drop a rock. Which is basically the same as a trap. Woo hoo. Gee, that takes lots of thought on the part of the player to avoid or work around. Yeah, sneak attack. That's good roleplaying on the part of the players. Responding to an attack they don't know is coming. I would rather my players have to figure out serious tactics before an encounter.

True, about the dragon thing. Although, I have to admit, in 4 years of 3e, I've yet to see a player actually come to my table with something like that, but, I'll grant you, it can happen.

Then again, in 2e, my cleric can use every cleric spell, every wizard spell, wear armor, use decent weapons and use a druid's xp table. Think I'm wrong? Priest of Aumator (Or however you spell that guy who is the god of magic (NOT GODDESS, GOD) from Faiths and Pantheons. And before you say that that's campaign specific, I point you to the fact that forgotten Realms is the default setting for 2e, therefore, things written for Forgotten Realms is meant to be used as a sort of standard.

Or wait, it gets better. My 3e character at first level can cast wizard spells, cleric spells and shape change. Oops, did I say 3e, I meant 2e. A cleric/mage/thief. 3 character levels straight out of the shoot. And, it needs just slightly more xp than the party paladin. And, he gets all the bonus xp of a cleric (for casting spells), a wizard (ditto) and a thief, which means that he should have MORE xp than any single classed character. All this for just a bit more xp than a paladin. Woot. Why anyone would play a single classed character in 2e was beyond me. It made absolutely no logical sense. You can say, "Oh well it's good roleplaying" all you like, but the fact of the matter is, the multiclasses were insanely powerful.

All I know is, in the past 4 levels of my current campaign, I've had 3 character deaths. THREE. And, all of them came from straight up combat. No sneaking, nothing funny. No dropping rocks from hidden orcs. Straight out combat. After fifth level, how often do you kill 2e characters in combat. Almost never. The bad guys simply don't do enough damage in comparison to the party. In 3e, combat is FAR more lethal.

[Draxy]

I'll get back to you tomorrow when I get a second... but the thing you said about the Tanglefoot Bags says it all.

Face it friend, 3e was just BUILT that way to take advantage of that console RPG idiocy. Because it's been said before doesn't make it inaccurate.

Draxy

[Hussar]

Y'know, the truly amusing thing is, I've never once seen a player use them. I don't know why. I think they're great. But, not once have I seen a player use them.

BTW, like your 2e players haven't used the same tactics with grease, web or other spells. Same doo doo, different pile.

[Draxy]

Oh hardly the same tactics. One it takes the ability to cast spells to use the Grease or Web spells. To use the Tanglefoot Bag it takes a character who has an arm free to throw the damned things and a few coins in his pouch.

The two do NOT equate.

Draxy