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Post by Hussar on Oct 25, 2003 3:43:14 GMT -5
Here's the drill. You have 4 pc's, each with 5 levels in whatever class you wish to give them. You are faced with a dangerous dungeon filled with traps, puzzles and critters galore. It's a big place. All underground. The critters are all suitable for a party of your level (ie, nothing over say CR 7 and that would be for the big boss) as are the traps. But, remember, the DM is a lethal DM. His encounters will kill you if you aren't smart and don't use tactics. Those who simply rush in will get slaughtered.
So, what party do you make to tackle this tricky site of terror? What races will you choose? What classes? What special equipment would you wish them to have that is reasonable for a 5th level party? Can you survive the Hack!?!
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Post by Merkvah on Oct 25, 2003 12:56:09 GMT -5
The best 4 PCs in this situation would be....
a Dwarven lvl 5 Fighter
a Human lvl 5 Cleric
an Elven lvl 5 Rogue
and a Gnomish lvl 5 Wizard
Why? 2 of them have darkvision.
1 has low light vision.
The human is a cleric of Pelor (or some other deity with the Healing domain), which is the most efficient healer available
Elven rogue? Low light vision, only requires 4 hours of rest each night. Helps a lot with the nightly watch.
Dwarven fighter? Darkvision and a bonus to Con, for max HP
Gnome wizard? Darkvision. Con bonus, because he needs all the HP he can get. Better if he has a toad familiar.
By level 5, everyone can have +1 weapons at least. The fighter should have a mundane weapon (whatever he spec's in) of adamantite and another of cold iron, for beating DR. There should be at LEAST 1 everburning torch in the party (90 gp)
Everyone needs to have a decient supply of food or a Ring of Sustanance (2000 gp item). Everyone should carry 50 feet of rope and a grappling hook. If someone has a bag of holding or a Hewards Handy Haversack, you should also have a 10 foot pole or a ladder.
The wizard should spend a bit of gold buying backup scrolls of spells he already knows, such as fly or magic missle.
the Cleric MUST have at least one "Wand of Cure Light Wounds." IMHO, the best 750 gold a cleric can spend, EVER.
Masterwork (or better) equipment for the rogue. High ranks in skills such as climb, jump, balance, hide, spot, search, listen, UMD...
I think that party, played by intelligent players, could do anything.
Merk
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Post by Wyrmfire on Oct 25, 2003 13:02:55 GMT -5
I like the above statement, but I would change the fighter to a paly and the wizard to a sorceror. Why? Well, for very small decrease in hitting power, a paladin gets you additional healing powers, and this seems like the type of place where you need them. I change teh wizard to a sorceror because the sorc is practically DESIGNED as a dungeon-crawling wizard. Lots of extra spells, and you don't need a huge variety when you already have a competent cleric, paladin, and rogue.
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Post by Merkvah on Oct 25, 2003 14:26:21 GMT -5
But... the Sorc is always one spell level below the wizard. =( a 5th level wizard already has Fireball.
I too would prefer the pally, but weapon spec adds up a lot. I dunno, though... maybe you're right about the pally. He could always heal the cleric if he went down... and a 5th level rogue only has about a 50% chance to use a wand with UMD anyway...
*shrug* Yeah. Probably the paladin. Make him human to get the extra feat. =)
Merk
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Post by Black Robed One on Oct 28, 2003 14:07:18 GMT -5
BRO's variation of party:
5th level dwarven fighter
Dressed in full plate, with dwarven waraxe and large shield; full plate and shield are enchanted. Primary abilities are Str and Con; but Int and Dex are 13 (no more), for the purpose of Expertise and Dodge feats. Role in party is 'Mr. Tank' holding frontal assault for huge amount of time, and inflicting a lot of damage in return.
Dwarf, because of Darkvision and enhanced Con.
4th level assimar cleric of Pelor
Dressed in full plate as well, with large shield and heavy mace; full plate and shield are enchanted. Among others magical items is Wand of Cure Light Wounds. Domains are Healing (to enchance healing ability and extra healing spells) and Sun (to deal more effectively with undead). Has prepared Silence spell, for the case, if party will be required to sneak in or out. Primary ability scores are Wis and Chr; but Str and Con are important as well. Role in pary is 'Healer' but can serve as additional frontline combatant, and can destroy nearly all undead the party can encounter.
Assimar becuase of Darkvision, as well as +2 Wis and +2 Chr; which IMHO worth loss of one level.
4th level rogue/1st level sorcerer gnome
Dressed in Mithral Shirt and Vest of Escape, and wearing boots and cloak of elvenkind. 1st level spells known are shield and detect secret doors. Primary abilities are Dex and Con; but Int follows them closely. Role in pary is 'Scout', sneaks ahead of the pary, searching for enemies, traps and secret doors. High Hide and Move Silently makes him hard to see; and even if he would be seen, high AC (with Shield spell on) and HP will help him to flee to the rest of the pary.
Gnome because of Darvision and Small Size; which IMHO worth enhanced Con instead of enhanced Dex.
5th level gray elven wizard
Carries protective items, i.e. Ring of Protection and Amulet of Natural Armor; as well as Wand of Magic Missile and Everburinign Torch (he is the only one in the party without natural Darkvision). Primary abilities are Dex and Int; but Con is important as well. Has prepared Darkvision (he is the only one in the party without natural Darkvision) and Invisibility Sphere (for the case, if party will be required to sneak in or out); as well as Mage Armor, Shield and Cat's Grace (to enhance his own AC); the rest of the spells should be mostly combat spells. Role in the party 'Support', a few prepared combat spells and Wand of Magic Missile makes him worthy in comat, while Invisibility Sphere, and possibly few others noncombat spells (like Knock, See Invisibility and Detect Magic) makes him valuable in some others situation. Has very high AC, which match that of the Mr. Tank.
Gray Elf because of enhanced Dex and Int, which IMHO worth lack of Darvision of the gnome. And of course, profeciency with longbow will be useful, when spells and Wand of Magic Missiles will be over.
Tactics:
This party relies more on careful and stealthy approach to the situation, then on 'Kick in the Door' style. Scout should ensure that party will ambush enemies more likely then otherwise. In combat, Mr. Tank and Healer are in the front like, while Scout and Support unleash arrows and spells on enemies. IMHO, such party would be very effective both in combat and stealth, and should pass dungeon with little troubles, if it will be played skillfully, of course.
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Post by Hussar on Oct 28, 2003 20:46:12 GMT -5
Umm, BRO? Not to be picky, but how are you going to be sneaky when two of your characters are wearing full plate?
*Clank clank clank* We are sneaking! *Clank clank clank*
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Post by Black Robed One on Oct 29, 2003 4:47:18 GMT -5
Umm, BRO? Not to be picky, but how are you going to be sneaky when two of your characters are wearing full plate? *Clank clank clank* We are sneaking! *Clank clank clank* When there is a good chance to ambush the enemies and/or enemy number is so great, that it is necessary to ambush enemies with whole party, Healer casts Silence upon Mr. Tank, and Support makes party invisible invisible. Scout and Support keep behind the area of silence, and ambush enemy from some distance. Healer walks within area of silence to ambush enemies, but can walk out of it, if his spells will be needed. In either cases, it is Scout who does ambushing part alone, then retreats, luring enemies who chase him to the rest of the party, which can wait behind the corner or in the invisibility sphere. |
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Post by Black Robed One on Oct 29, 2003 4:48:44 GMT -5
*...*
...!
*...*
[Thinking] Oh, Nine Hells, we can't talk since we are in silence! [/Thinking]
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Post by ShonenSenshiDave on Oct 30, 2003 14:54:44 GMT -5
PC #1: Rogue. Stealth and disabling traps... always a necessary component of a party. Prolly halfling. Sneak attacks, thief skills, and not a lot of noise. Add the right set of skills and feats... very nasty character. Items: tanglefoot bags, leather +1, potions of invisibility.
PC #2: Monk. I'm not a huge fan of the fighter, but the party HAS to have a front line fighter. Human. The advantage here is heavy damage and attack bonuses, but also has the ability to move silently, hide in shadows and avoids the clanky clank noise accompanied by plate mail!
PC #3: Sorceror. Again, Human. Casting of any spell known. Doesn't have to worry about being unprepared or underprepared. Additionally, pad him up with Spell Focus and maybe Point Blank Shot or another combat-related feat to help with the spell-slinging. Makes him very effective with the spells. Add a couple of item creation feats for potions, and he's good to go! Pad with ring of protection, cloak of resistance, or bracers of armour, just to keep him alive.
PC #4: Cleric. Human. Definitely war domain, possibly strength domain. Cleric has a good balance of attack and defensive spells, turning, spontaneous casting of healing spells, but isn't a slouch in combat. Stays away from the scout, clad in medium armour. I avoid the healing domain so that the character can be more than a walking band aid, but the cleric still has the healing spells to use. And since she would be a high enough level, would certainly have the Brew Potion and Scribe Scroll feats to ensure that the party could properly prepare beforehand and have enough healing magics.
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Post by Hussar on Nov 4, 2003 3:36:35 GMT -5
I'm with SSD on this one. Do without the fighter type completely. At this level, a cleric isn't far behind a fighter anyways. Hp are comparable and so is fighting ability.
I'd go with a 5th rogue, a 5th conjurer and two 5th level clerics with domains that do not overlap. I don't think I'd even bother with healing domain. By this level, the party can afford at least one wand of Cure light, so, healing is not really an issue. Also, between the three spell casters, you can summon so much cannon fodder that any fight should never even reach you. I would also make all 4 human for the extra skills and feats and have them all own a pair of goggles of the Night (or whatever the darkvision goggles are called).
The thief would definitely have the short end of the stick here though. He'd be constantly out in front and I mean way out in front. At least 4 rounds of walking distance if not 7 or 8. So, to give him a little more survivability, he has an elven cloak and boots with a few potions of shield to really back him up if things get hairy. He pulls and the other three ambush.
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Post by Hussar on Nov 5, 2003 4:34:59 GMT -5
Another option would be 2 5th level thieves, a 4th thief/1st bard and a 5th level illusionist. The bard can use a wand of cure light wounds, which pretty much handles the healing. Given a bit of smarts and nastiness, the thieves, backed up by the illusionist should be able to control pretty much every battlefield. They would be an incredibly quiet group also. This would however, depend on the critter being somewhat intelligent. If they are all undead, it could be a serious problem. However, in a dungeon where there is any sort of ecology, and politics, they should be able to start a war in the dungeon and sit back and pick off the survivors. It would take a heck of a lot of guts to go this route though. If things went pear shaped, they would be in serious trouble.
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nodwyck
Soldier
A henchman isn't just for Christmas, it's for life!
Posts: 261
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Post by nodwyck on Dec 10, 2003 6:26:31 GMT -5
I'm with SSD on this one. Do without the fighter type completely. At this level, a cleric isn't far behind a fighter anyways. Hp are comparable and so is fighting ability. A 5th lvl fighter has +2 BAB and 3 (combat oriented) feats more than a cleric and probably higher str and con scores. At that point cleric is far behind. Still, you can make do without a fighter, but I'd take a (halfling or gnome) pally (riding a dog) or (half-orc) barbie instead. If there is a paladin, I'd take a bard in for healer (yes, the cure wand) and party booster. Otherwise, a cleric is a must. That's two. Third would probably be wizard (dwarf or human), not for the 3rd level spells, but for the ranks in knowledge skills. Sorc would do inna pinch. The last one should be a rogue with darkvision (natural or magical). Why a rogue in the company of 1-2 tin men? He can scout ahead, and has a wide variety of useful spelunking skills, and act as a support fighter (elf, gnome or halfling rogue would be at least as difficult to hit as a paladin at this point). Besides, the tin men aren't the problem. light sources are. As long as there is at least one person without darkvision, you'll need a light source. And that pinpoints the party. |
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Post by AtlanteanAscendant on Dec 12, 2003 5:16:01 GMT -5
instead of the pally i might run with the 5th level Ranger because they can specialize in dungeonering and by this point has 2 specialized foes which is a +2 and +4 to Spot, Search, damage, bluff, blah blah blah. He's also got the sneaky stuff down and has the skills, BAB, and saves to be able to back up any party member. And if youre looking to outfit someone with a wand of CLW, the Ranger can go with it because CLW IS on his spell list.
i dont have my books in front of me right now, but here's howd i go with the assortment...
5th level Human Ranger, extra feat. possible potions of scrolls of infravision/darkvision over the wondrous item, as that item runs to the expensive side (i dont recall GPs of 5th level characters). Also, Ranger has potential of being either two-weapon combat monkey or ranged attack god. combined with the favored enemies of which they have two. Depending on the sitch, the ranger can have the advantage over at least two of the more prominant dungeon type enemies. Also, heavy on the stealth and can back up the necesarry rogue.
4th level Gnome Rogue/1st Level Sorceror, sneaky and spells. This one has already come up and id keep it. With the Ranger as back up, no one man goes anywhere alone incase the DM has a 'divide and conquer' mentality. Between a Ranger's longstrider spel or the Gnomes 'expeditious retreat' they also have the speed incase a quick retreat is needed. Also noted for Darkvision and Con bonus.
5th level Dwarven Cleric, i dont know if id necesarrily go with a healing god. as we have a sneaky, sneaky group here. Id think a god of travel or trickery might be better off here. Also with that, that usually means detect secret doors/traps, and a few of the other normally sorceror spells become domain for the cleric. and with the spontaneous swap for healing spells and the Ranger with the wand of CLW, youre set for most injuries that come your way. IMO, it might be best if both the cleric and the ranger have wands of clw. one so the cleric doesnt have to swap/waste as often, and j.i.c. the ranger goes down. Also, having the Dwarf in the group means the dwarf can sense secret doors or detect unusal slopes, traps, and the like in the stonework around them. Also in case you end up fighting with something of the giant or goblin persuasions, the Dwarf has the bonuses both to AC and attack against these creatures that they are as useful as any fighter. Also good for pesky undead.
5th level Elven Wizard, by this point, extra item creation or metamagic feat. go with item creation:WANDS. At low levels, wands are indespensible for wizards and the fact theyve got 3rd level spells now makes them deadly in enclosed areas. Also, blow the 1st level feat on Point Blank Shot, then Rapid Shot. And pair the Wizard with the cleric. Elves automatically have short and long bows as martial weapons, use that to your advantage. As not many other feats enhance the wizard by this point, the wizard will continue to be useful at least marginally even after his spell selection runs dry. If nothing else, its cover fire while the cleric cleans up, or rogue and ranger get the hell out of dodge. besides, its funny to watch the dwarf and elf argue...
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Post by Torack on Dec 29, 2003 16:24:06 GMT -5
In my opinion it depends. Both the loud and the sneaky party will work. As long as you have a Rogue or Bard in your party, you should be able to survive most of the traps. You can always opt to sneek past those nasties if you want.
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Post by AtlanteanAscendant on Jan 5, 2004 1:59:05 GMT -5
the only issue about the bard is that a)with most of their useful party abilities are vocal/sound based, itd be hard to be a sneaky group with a bard. and b)rogues are the only ones who can search for traps (though barbarians have the ability to evade/sense traps but not actually search for them...)
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