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Post by Hussar on Nov 25, 2003 22:04:23 GMT -5
So, which is better?
Personally, I think the Wizzies, particularly the spec wiz kicks the sorc butt. Sure, the sorc has more spells per day, but the spec wiz isn't far behind and gets access to higher level spells faster. Combined with a free scribe scroll feat, the wizzie can be so much more versatile.
To me, a sorc is a combat mage and the wizzies and spec wizzies are much more effective by being able to hold their own in combat and being able to do all the other stuff as well.
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Post by ShonenSenshiDave on Nov 26, 2003 6:53:19 GMT -5
True, true Hussar, however, here's where the sorceror have advantages:
Better weapon selection. I know, not the first thought, but keep in mind that if the spells run out....
Better spell selection PER DAY. I may only have magic missle and shield at first level, but as a sorceror, I don't have to prepare my spells, so if I need 4 magic missles, I have them. Wizzies are bound by what they have prepared, which isn't always useful (there's no way to be prepared for everything!).
Oh, and lest we forget... I don't believe that Wizzies get bonus spells PER DAY for high intelligence, do they? I am fairly certain that sorcs get bonus spells per day...
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Post by Black Robed One on Nov 26, 2003 6:57:09 GMT -5
... I don't believe that Wizzies get bonus spells PER DAY for high intelligence, do they? I am fairly certain that sorcs get bonus spells per day... Hmmm... I always believed, that Wizards get bonus spells per day for high Intelligence score, just as Sorcerers get bonus spells per day for high Charisma score, just as Cleric get bonus spells per day for high Wisdom score, and so on...
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Post by Black Robed One on Nov 26, 2003 7:07:13 GMT -5
Right... back to the subject.
IMHO, both Wizard and Sorcerer are balanced comparing to each other.
Wizard has an advantage of knowing more spells and bonus feats, while Sorcerer has an advantage of being able to cast more spells per day and being able to cast them without preparation.
Personally, I played both Wizards and Sorcerers, and I cannot say, that Wizard is better then Sorcerer or vice versa. They are just different.
Also, IMHO, Wizard is better as support to the party, i.e. the one who can open that damned magically locked adamante door, or the one who can teleport party somewhere where they will have trouble getting otherwise, and so on...
As about Sorcerer, IMHO, Sorcerer is much better then Wizard when it comes to the direct combat, for abilty to cast more spells without preparing them is vital for combat.
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Post by MrLemurBoy on Nov 26, 2003 9:40:31 GMT -5
I agree that Wizard and Sorcerer are balanced in that each class is better at different things, and so depending on character concept, each class can be worth taking. The one problem I have with the sorcerer class is that there's no incentive to remain sorcerer. At least with a wizard, there are those bonus feats you keep getting, so you may want to stay wizard for a while to take advantage of that, but besides getting a pumped up familiar, there's no reason for a sorcrer not to jump into a +1 / level spellcaster progression PrC (well, mechanicaly there's no reason... roleplay reasons are, of course, a whole other story). With most of the classes, they did a good job of keeping them from being front-ended in 3.5 (hello Ranger), but the sorcerer really didn't get anything to create any incentive for taking it to lvl 20.
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Post by Black Robed One on Nov 26, 2003 9:59:10 GMT -5
I agree that Wizard and Sorcerer are balanced in that each class is better at different things, and so depending on character concept, each class can be worth taking. The one problem I have with the sorcerer class is that there's no incentive to remain sorcerer. At least with a wizard, there are those bonus feats you keep getting, so you may want to stay wizard for a while to take advantage of that, but besides getting a pumped up familiar, there's no reason for a sorcrer not to jump into a +1 / level spellcaster progression PrC (well, mechanicaly there's no reason... roleplay reasons are, of course, a whole other story). With most of the classes, they did a good job of keeping them from being front-ended in 3.5 (hello Ranger), but the sorcerer really didn't get anything to create any incentive for taking it to lvl 20. What you said about having little point in progressing as Sorcerer when you can find yourself a good Prestige Class, which give +1 levle of spellcasting class, is true, MrLemurBoy. However, is it really different with Wizard, MrLemurBoy? Wizard gains bonus feat once every fifth (!) levle! Every spellcasting Prestige Class (like Incantatrix, Loremaster, Mage of Arcane Order, Alienist and many others!) offer Wizard much better features then one bonus feat per five levels. P.S.Just as MrLemurBoy, I am speaking about mechanical reasons, not role-playing reasons in here. P.P.S.Keep in mind, that since I am not really familiar with 3.5 edition all my opinions are based upon 3.0 edition.
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Post by MrLemurBoy on Nov 26, 2003 11:02:03 GMT -5
I'll admit, it's not a whole lot different, but at least there is some incentive. a few people may stick with it a few levels longer to get that extra metamagic or item creation feat that they really want. Sorc doesn't even have that much.
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Post by Black Robed One on Nov 26, 2003 11:08:29 GMT -5
I'll admit, it's not a whole lot different, but at least there is some incentive. a few people may stick with it a few levels longer to get that extra metamagic or item creation feat that they really want. Sorc doesn't even have that much. Well, possibly the Wizard is a bit better in that respect, especially since you will need to archve 5th - 10th level before adding a Prestige Class anyway, and the Wizard will gain 2 - 3 bonus feats in these 5 - 10 levels. But nevertheless, I consider these bonus feats the Wizard will get rather balanced by Sorcerer's large amount of spells per day and ability to cast spells without preparation.
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Post by Hussar on Nov 27, 2003 1:09:42 GMT -5
See, now, in my mind, it is far too easy for a wizzie to jack his spells out the roof. 5th level - take Craft Wand and you've just bought your way into a slew of very useful spells that you can use lots of. I used it for the longer durations spells like mage armour or things like that. Get up in the morning, take out your wands and poof, buff yourself through the roof.
One thing I didn't realize, is there a difference between wizzie and sorc weapon profs? I don't have a book handy right now, but I thought they were the same.
Thing is, sure at 1st level, you've got those four spells. If I'm a specialist, I've got 3. And that's out of a choice of 5. By the time I'm 5th, I actually can cast as many spells per day as a sorc and at a couple of levels, I think I actually can cast more. Mostly because wizzies gain access to the higher level spells so much faster. Which makes the metamagic feats so much more useful so much earlier. A sorc can't really use a metamagic feat until 6th. At 3rd, he still only has 1st level spells. So, I've got to advance 6 levels before I can use any meta feats and really, I've got to be around 10th or 11th before I get into the nastier ones like maximize. It just takes way too long to get into the higher level spells.
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Post by ShonenSenshiDave on Nov 27, 2003 7:21:49 GMT -5
yuppers, in 3.0, Wizzies get to "select from the following list" while sorc can use all simple weapons. not a huge difference, but important for me personally.
I see where y'all are coming from a game mechanics point of view, but I could swear that there were some major changes made in 3.5. Like allowing the sorc to swap out useless low level spells at higher levels for different ones (who needs the sleep spell at level 15?!?).
I also think that there is an inherent combative nature to the sorceror. The class seems to have been tailor made to folks like me who wanted to get away from the "wizened old wizard" schtick and move to something different. The sorceror is the wild unbridled yin to the wizzies calm intellectual yang. Guess which I prefer <g>
Oh, and BRO, IIRC, high intelligence adds to spells per day? I don't have my books in front of me, not 100% sure...
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Post by Blade on Nov 27, 2003 7:52:13 GMT -5
Wizardz get bonus spellz from high int or they would suk.
Wizardz are better
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Post by AtlanteanAscendant on Dec 12, 2003 4:53:12 GMT -5
here i am, late as always, but willing to throw in my two cents regardless of whether its wanted or not.
seriously though, if its weapon selection that interests you, cheese out and take one, JUST one level of fighter. And bam, both wizard and Sorcerer are matched and even gain that nifty +1 BAB and a much needed +2 to their Fort Save. At lower levels, Sorcerors do indeed have the advantage. the problem is that even if they swap their spell selection, thats only a couple of spells and they are limited to only three or four spells per level. Five or six tops unless they blow feats to learn spells (Forgotten Realms and Tome and Blood have feats that allow this). Wizards on the other hand easily top Sorcerors after 5th definately 10th level. why? creation and metamagic feats. As has already been stated. where sorcerors dont have to memorize, a wizard can make a few wands or scrolls (a freebie feat for them) and overcome that end easily.
Sorcerors have advantage early on and when the wizard finds himself without access to his spellbook and items for a few days. But other than that? wizards, specialists even moreso beat the sorceror's advantage outright.
What i love is that though Sorceror's prime score is charisma, they have ONE skill that relies on Charisma. Personally, id balance the Sorceror over the wizard by grabbing fighter, rogue, or Ranger levels. Even Barbarian levels. Mageboy starts running low on spells and a Sorceror rages and rips him new one. But yeah, straight classing, after the awkward initial levels, wizard has the advantage.
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