Fallen Blackguard Paladins? - a debate

[OmniWyvernil]

To bring some life into this board, I'll bring over a theoretical question I have posted on the old PlanetADND board.

In 3rd edition, fallen paladins can turn to 'the dark side' and become blackguards, even gaining special abilities for doing so. If such a powerful force of good can be turned to evil, can the opposite be true?

Given the following conditions,

1. The blackguard in question has fully repented and become Lawful Good.

2. The blackguard has never been a paladin before, since if he was he would be unable to gain further levels in the class due to commiting evil acts as a paladin.

Would a 'fallen' blackguard be able to become a paladin?

Of course, I recognize that it would be a rare event, since the forces of evil would be more than eager to eliminate one of their own who has strayed from the fold, and that the forces of good would have a hard time trusting the former villain because of his past sins. But, would this event be theoretically possible?

Any input is appreciated.

[ShonenSenshiDave]

I personally don't see why not. If a Paladin who has been LG all of his/her life can "fall from grace" and become a Blackguard, why can't someone who has devoted his/her life to evil "return to grace"?

Jim Butcher actually tackled a topic similar to this in his "Dresden Files" series. In the most recent instrallment, "Death's Mask", IIRC, all three Knights Templar were introduced (until then, we had seen only one). Each Knight has a holy sword containing a nail from the One True Cross that Christ was crucified on. Obviously only someone special, like, say, called by the Gods to fight for the forces of good, could wield these swords.

And guess what? One Knight was the stereotype: deeply religious, strong moral convictions, yadda, yadda, yadda. One was a Buddhist-type. And the third? An Agnostic former demon. Yup, he was evil and nasty, managed to get his hands on one of the 30 silver coins given to Judas to betray Christ, became a demon, returned to human after a while, and is now a Chosen of God.

This is just an example, but I think it addresses what you're asking... someone who is utterly evil most certainly may repent and become a holy warrior.

[Black Robed One]

Just as SSD, I find the possibility of fallen blackguard becoming a paladin acceptable. Of course, it would a be a rare thing, because:

A) Forces of evil are usually very egar to kept their warriors on the dark side, tempting them with pleasures, gold, and power.

B) When 'A' fails, forces of evil are usually quite able to deal with their traitor minions (in our case, with fallen blackguards), and do so with no regreat, but with deadly effectiveness.

C) Even when both 'A' and 'B' fails, forces of good are usually very wary about evil warriors who suddenly turned good, and they are proably right, because the one who betray his ideals once is likely to do it again. Remember, at war traitors are used and then killed, because nobody would trust the traitor.

Note: it is completely different in case of the forces of evil, who usually favor traitors and and see betrayal as 'survivor of the fittest'. That's why fallen paladin can become blackguard much easier then fallen blackguard can become paladin.

However, IMHO, in extreme rare cases fallen blackguard can indeed become paladin.

As a lot of conditions are involved, I voted 'Yes, but only in special circumstances'.

[Merkuri]

Rarely, because as BRO already said, a traitor is more readily accepted by the side of evil rather than good. I could see a blackguard repenting and becoming lawful good, but to become a paladin would require extremely special circumstances, a lot of remorse, and he would doubtlessly have to prove himself trustworthy and good many times before he was granted paladinhood. I also think it depends on what world you're playing in and the "attitude" of good. If the forces of good were focused on forgiveness and redemption, then I could see a blackguard being forgiven and becoming a paladin. However, if they were focused more on justice and destroying evil then it might be much harder. A blackguard would have to pay for his crimes in that case.

[Hussar]

Although, something to remember, a Paladin cannot choose to be a paladin, he or she is chosen by a god. If the blackguard was truly repentent and the god was willing, then he'd be a paladin. This would cause all sorts of headaches for the church who could then not punish him since he's been forgiven by their god.

[ShonenSenshiDave]

Agreed Hussar, but I suspect that the Church would be much happier with a repentant. If you look at the Book of Exalted Deeds, it constantly stresses the idea that good folks, especially LG paladin folks, should make every effort to redeem the bad guys as opposed to just slaughtering them. I think that although there may be a certain level of discomfort, the truly devout would not question the will of the Gods and would probably celebrate the conversion of one so evil to the side of good.

On a related note, if a Paladin can trade in levels of her class to become a Blackguard, would the Celestial Hierarchy recognize levels of Blackguard? If the Infernal powers cut a break to one so devout and take such joy in her fall by allowing her to "trade in" levels, would it be far off the mark to assume that the Celestial powers would do the same for a Blackguard, or would they, through redemption, insist that all infernal powers be renounced? I suspect the latter...

[Nikolai Plogojowitz]

Depends on how forgiving the church was, and how evil said blackguard was. Im sure they would eventaully forgive a recently turned blackguard, who had been LG his whole life, once he completed some repenting task. But even the church couldnt forgive said blackguard had he slaughtered an entire city full of innocents, attempted/commited genocide, raped/killed countless children, killed an emmisary of god, such as an angel or some other outsider,etc. Some acts are just too evil to be forgiven