Bull rush and Incorporealness

[Hussar]

In a recent session, a troll attempted to bull rush a shadow (Don't ask why, just accept it as truth). Now, how would you adjudicate bull rushing an incorporeal creature? Can the rusher simply move through the square, subject to an attack of opportunity? Or, does the rusher require a weapon that can hit non-corporeal targets and then need to beat the 50% miss chance? How would you deal with this?

[Iron Bonny Shades]

I would say, if he can't hit him using normal weapons, then he's going to have a 50% to go right through him and provoke an aoo.

[nodwyck]

without improved bull rush feat, the rushing troll provokes an AoO, even if it cannot hurt the shadow. The shadow has no risk whatsoever of being bull rushed, it just ignores the nonmagical corporeal source of attack. This means that the bull rush fails, and the troll risks falling prone (no opposed rolls, but a balance check might be in order).

[AtlanteanAscendant]

agreed, unless the troll is wearing some sort of magical gloves or is wearing ghost touch equipment (both would allow... feasibly.. bull rush attempts), no shot whatsoever of touching the incorporeal/shadow being.

*shudder* the thought of a troll being drained and coming back as a shadow scares me

[Hussar]

Okay, so, the troll (or whatever) can't touch the shadow. Then, can he simply move through the shadow's square? I realize he would draw the AOO, but, could he simply run straight through the shadow?

[Merkuri]

That would be my guess. Troll runs straight through the shadow, who just laughs and takes a passing swipe at him (AoO).

[cryptangel]

It makes sense. If there's nothing touchable in that square, someone can run through it (taking the AoO from the shadow).
But then again the shadow by being incorporeal has a 50% chance of actually being touched, wich means that the troll tries the bull rush, he rolls the % dice, if he gets a good roll, he touches the shadow and gets his bull rush, if not, he goes through and must make a balance check or fall prone, after all, he was throwing himself hoping to hit against something, not just air.

[nodwyck]

No. An incorporeal critter ignores nonmagical attacks from the material plane. If, for some reason, the troll in question had, say, a Magic fang spell cast on it, it would have the 50% chance of actually touching the shadow.
(DMG 3.5E, p. 295; DMG 3.0E, pp. 77-78)

[Hussar]

Well, I guess the question is, can someone simply move through a square occupied by an incorporeal creature? Yes, I realize it draws the AOO, but it would be nice if you were surrounded by spectres say, if you could just run through them and get away.

[nodwyck]

yea, you can, kinda. it sorta becomes an overrun, I guess, with the overran critters dodging. They still can block you if they so desire (they can attack to material plane). we're in a loop here, aren't we?

[Merkuri]

Hussar said:

Yes, I realize it draws the AOO, but it would be nice if you were surrounded by spectres say, if you could just run through them and get away.

I think the idea is that you don't run right through them because that's basically running right into their arms.

I'd rule that if you can't touch it that you can run through it. Of course, if it can touch you (i.e. attack material plane), then it has the opinion of blocking you, like Nods said. Then you wouldn't run through it, but I don't think you'd do damage, either.