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Post by Challenger on Feb 8, 2004 18:00:44 GMT -5
I don't know about the USA but in the UK that sort of thing falls under the data protection act and no store would allow anyone access and would report sercurity breaches immediatly. (Because to do other wise will see them shut down or fined very heavily. Anyone involved would certainly be fired maby even given sentences, I'm not to up on this act.)
Seeing as its already agaist the law here for anyone to have access to that information it could never be used to track you accept illegaly. Seeing as if someones willing to break the law to follow you they could do it without these tags anyway they don't make a huge ammount of difference. Its only decent hackers you would have to worry about anyway.
As I've already pointed out I'm unsure if the USA has a similar act so all this may not apply.
/off topic a second just a little though but I know of atleast one program I could get my hands on for free that would tell me your IP address, internet provider and operating system simply by you accessing this site. Wouldn't be much of a strech to incress its capacity to tell me what your email address is and where your accessing the net from.
Challenger
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Post by khyron1144 on Feb 8, 2004 18:12:12 GMT -5
Some more of my thougths on crime detection/ prevention:
Every one is a criminal. Most of us just stay small time like jay walking when it's more convenient than walking all the way down to the corner to cross the street; or driving 5 MPH over the speed limit when there's no cops around; or making a copy of the new CD you just bought for your best freind who has similar taste in music (home taping and downloading aren't killing the music industry; crap music and high prices are doing well enough without the boost).
Now imagine that this RFID tag thing gets far enough that the government knows where most everybody is most all the time. Now, ticketing jay walkers and 5 MPH over speeders is just a matter of printing out a list from the computer that collects this information and mailing tickets to those on the list.
Can you see any benefit in that?
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Post by Challenger on Feb 8, 2004 18:33:52 GMT -5
Did you know 5 mph over the 30 limit dramaticaly incresses the odds of killing anyone you hit.
The difference between 30 and 35 is not quite as bad as 30 to 40 but its alot more than you would think. Just food for thought there.
Copying a CD is by my morals stealing though I tend to view things by a case by case thing. Theres no harm in copying a nolonger produced CD as far as I can see.
I can safely say I have never committed either of the above bar speeding and I'm talking about 1 or 2 mph over for a few seconds. Which unless I'm mistake is not attualy illegal. (Not that all speed cameras know this)
BTW what is jay walking? I can't think of an English law that fits the bill.
I still think that tracking people though the tags in their clothes would be next to impossible. Such technology would mark me not only as female but as 13 to 45 years older than I attualy am. And would mark my sister as me a fair ammount of the time.
Challenger
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Post by khyron1144 on Feb 8, 2004 19:00:37 GMT -5
Jay walking is crossing a street in the middle of the block rather than the corner. It's supposed to be one of those for your own good kind of laws like requiring motorcyclists to wear helmets and people in cars to wear seat belts. There's some sense in it, but it's rarely enforced.
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 8, 2004 20:51:47 GMT -5
Oh, and yes, Challenger, driving 1 mph over the speed limit is illegal in the US. I've heard that in Europe the speed limits are just "suggestions," but here they're supposed to be exactly that: limits as to how fast you can drive. But the speed limit is broken so often that you become a traffic hazard if you drive below it. Yet it's still technically illegal and people get ticketed for it all the time.
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Post by Hussar on Feb 8, 2004 23:57:14 GMT -5
Now, the photo radar thing has been knocked down here in Canada as unconstitutional. Since you cannot prove that I was driving my car on the day that the car was speeding, how can you make me pay for the ticket? A similar thing would go for using RFID tags for that kind of thing. Prove that I was wearing those clothes and not my friend or my brother.
Thing is, tracking the RFID tags wouldn't be that difficult for a private person. All you would need is a radio transmitter. A walkie talkie, 29.99 from Radio Shack, could do it. A stalker's dream. All I have to do is stick an RFID tag onto your car and I know when you leave home. Best way for housebreaking. Walk down a subdivision sticking RFID tags to cars. Watch for when they drive away and plan to hit houses when no one is home.
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Post by Challenger on Feb 9, 2004 6:29:29 GMT -5
Though so. Theres no such law as Jaywalking in England. No where near enough crossings anyway.
I checked and you do have a 3mph leway in England. If nothing else because theres no law forcing you to attualy have your speedometer checked ever. As I said the speed cameras often aren't programed to take this into account but then similar to what Hussar said you don't have to pay because technicaly they are illegal.
Hussar your example of housebreaking? Couldn't he do that by parking his car somewhere in the street and watch.
Challenger
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Post by Hussar on Feb 9, 2004 7:32:10 GMT -5
Oh, sure. However, the police do watch for that kind of thing. As do neighbourhood watch. Ask any real estate agent who drives around neighbourhoods if they've ever been pulled over. My point is, why make it easier. I can buy a walkie talkie that has a five mile range. I don't have to be anywhere near the scene in order to get the information. It's kinda like those baby moniters. When they first came out, people could listen to your house through them. I think they've fixed it.
My point is, why not just have the tags removable or disableable (is that a word?)? Couldn't there be something done when the item is rung through the cash register that blows the chip? That way, everyone is happy.
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Post by Challenger on Feb 9, 2004 7:48:37 GMT -5
My point is, why not just have the tags removable or disableable (is that a word?)? Couldn't there be something done when the item is rung through the cash register that blows the chip? That way, everyone is happy. If these are what I think they are, in England they are. And on items their not its fairly easy to remove them with a stanly knife. Quick question. How would you use a walkie talkie to track the movement of a tag. If all the tag does is send out a fixed signal if it recieves the correct signal how would a walkie talkie determine dirrection and velocity. Speed and Distance I could work out but I'd want a computor to do so. Challenger
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 9, 2004 8:39:16 GMT -5
As I said in my first post, RFID tags are already everywhere, but they're not used nearly to their potential. The ones you see today are obvious and removable. But it's possible to make them small enough to fit into the hem of a shirt. You'd have to search the whole shirt to find it and then tear it apart to get rid of it. Some companies (i.e. Wal-Mart) want to do it this way. Now you don't need paper tags hanging off of your clothes with a bar code. It makes things easier. However, it also makes you easier to track.
I'm not sure if your method of stalking cars would work, Hussar. RFID tags have a very small range. They do not have batteries or a power source, they sort of echo the triggering signal, so their strength depends on the strength of the triggering signal. You'd need to be pretty close to hear them, even if you could activate them with a radio transmitter/reciever five miles away.
However, if you could find some way to get that to work, it would be very simple to determine which people are home and which aren't. You don't need to know velocity, speed, acceleration, or even position. All you need to know is if the signal is there or if it isn't. If it's there, the car is in the driveway and the people are home. If your reader can't find the signal, then it's out of range, which means either the car is gone or somebody found your RFID tag (which isn't very likely, because of their size).
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Post by Hussar on Feb 13, 2004 8:37:59 GMT -5
There's a rather lengthy article in a Scientific American I just picked up about the RFID tags. Something to be aware of is, right now they are very expensive. Almost 10 or 15 cents each. This makes them way to expensive to be put into general use. Also, they are currently unidirectional (meaning they have to be pointed at the transmitter to work) and easily blocked. The article figured it wouldn't be until 2015 until they come into regular service. There's certainly no immediete panic to worry about.
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 13, 2004 8:53:03 GMT -5
Yes, but Wal-Mart is already pushing to get them into stores. They really want RFID tags, and what Wal-Mart wants, it gets (usually). They are coming.
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Post by Hussar on Feb 13, 2004 9:17:05 GMT -5
It's unlikely Wal-Mart is going to put a 15 cent doohicky on a 1 dollar chocolate bar anytime soon. That, and the fact that RFID tags right now are purely line of sight means that I'm not too worried.
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 13, 2004 9:32:08 GMT -5
All I'm saying is that it's inevitable, whether tomorrow or 11 years from now.
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Post by Galadon on Feb 14, 2004 12:28:55 GMT -5
Now we go back to the old question. Why would the government or someone track you.Personally I don't give the government that much credit to tract the general population. There are many better ways to to bug people and follow them. Of course I would use RFID tags just to distract them. Make them think they found the tracking device and let there guard down.
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