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Post by Merkuri on Jan 6, 2004 9:13:40 GMT -5
Amen, Loki. Though I probably would've tried to put it a little more politely, you hit the nail on the head. Decisions that NO, NONE, NADDA American citizen should have to make. I feel like I have to say that nobody should have to make that decision, American or otherwise. That's probably what you meant, but I felt the need to say it anyway. |
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Post by Loki3 on Jan 6, 2004 17:20:15 GMT -5
I can be blunt sometimes, wasnt trying to sugar coat it though, I guess it worked.  And you are right NO ONE should be forced to make those decisions, thanks for the correction...... |
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Post by khyron1144 on Jan 12, 2004 1:10:26 GMT -5
>>War on Drugs however should be fought and won. Drugs destroy lifes and kill people. Smoking sould be baned too but what you gonna do, it ain't happening but two wrongs don't make a right so lets get to dealing with whats fixable.<<
Drugs will never be a totally fixable problem.
However, here would be my solution to make the problem as small as it will ever be:
Legalize the possession, growing, manufacture, and sale of most of them. Prohibition is doing for other drugs now what it did for alcohol in the twenties, giving money to criminals and depriving the government of a potential source of income through taxes.
Make sure kids get health classes that deal with the negative physical effects of drugs in an honest and not overly sensationalized manner, starting at an early age. Any kid these days that doesn't smoke does so because he knows that it will kill him eventually, not because he can't get cigarettes, yet it is still a minority of kids who smoke. The sitaution is unlikely to change if drugs are legalized.
Create a variant on the use a gun, go to jail laws for drugs, where crimes relating to drugs receive a harsher penalty than those that don't. That is, to say, armed robbery to get money for drugs (including alcohol and tobacco) or under the influence of drugs (including alcohol and tobacco) should carry a heavier sentence than other armed robberies.
Make sure drunk driving laws are broad enough to include other impairing substances (even cough syrup and allergy medications).
Impose a reasonable sin tax on all newly leaglized drugs.
Set a minimum age, this will have the least effect, but it will keep some of the naturally lilly-livered, law-abiding kids to stay away for a while.
Make rehab and detox readily available to the willing and set up some sort of involuntary comitment standards for them similar to those for mental rehabilitation.
Don't waste money on stupid PSAs. They don't work and can't be made to work. This includes most other PSAs.
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Post by Merkuri on Jan 12, 2004 11:08:38 GMT -5
Legalize the possession, growing, manufacture, and sale of most of them. Prohibition is doing for other drugs now what it did for alcohol in the twenties, giving money to criminals and depriving the government of a potential source of income through taxes. Oh god no! I agree with you that eventually this might lessen the problem but can you IMAGINE what will happen within a few weeks of implementing this law?? I guarantee you the amount of drug related crimes and deaths will skyrocket. And that's probably understating the issue. I don't think the trouble this will cause is worth it. And even if I agreed with you, I'm sure any congressman or president that backs this law can guarantee he'll never get elected to anything again. It won't happen. I agree, but in most health classes today I think this already happens. At least, I recall having health classes like this. Drugs, STDs, alcohol, smoking, we learned what they all did to our bodies. [/color] Hard to prove. Well, it's not too hard to prove that someone was under the influence of drugs when they commit a crime, but to prove that money for drugs was the motivation for the crime is harder. Any good cop might be able to tell you the motivation, but that won't be any good in court. Deffinitely agree. Add exhaustion/tiredness to the list (which a lot of states are doing now anyway). I guess I'd have to agree with this, provided drugs were legalized, but I already said why I think they shoudn't be legal. Agree. I agree that most PSAs don't work today, but I think more research should be done on why they don't work and what would work. To truly combat the widespread drug use in this country we need to combat ignorance. PSAs are the obvious answer, but it's common knowlege that they don't work. We need to find something that does. Education in schools is one way, but we need more. |
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Post by Hussar on Jan 12, 2004 20:27:08 GMT -5
Sorry to sound stupid, but what's a PSA?
And about drug laws carrying stiff penalties, well, when being caught three times for possession puts me in jail for life, I'd say that's pretty harsh. Hmm, I've got a small bag of grass and get nailed three times and I never see the light of day again. Gee, that's not harsh. Also, it has been proven that mandatory minimums are racist.
Legalization has worked in a number of countries already. It would certainly be worth it to look into the legalization of "soft" drugs like marijuana. Other than the fear mongering that you see on the TV, there is little proof that grass is that bad for you in comparison to cigarettes or alcohol.
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Post by khyron1144 on Jan 12, 2004 20:40:36 GMT -5
PSA= Public Service Announcements= stupid preachy commercials no one takes seriously, but the government pays for them anyways.
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Post by Loki3 on Jan 12, 2004 22:03:05 GMT -5
POST REMOVED BY LOKI3
MY POST WOULDNT HAVE OFFERED ANYTHING POSITIVE TO THE DISCUSSION
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Post by khyron1144 on Jan 12, 2004 22:51:50 GMT -5
I don't do drugs. Never have. Probably never will.
I do support the right of adults to kill themselves in any manner they choose.
It sounds like a number of the problems you mentioned are caused by interfering with the drug trade. Some of them are caused by the drug trade itself, but I think these abuses would disappear or go down to a certain extent if everyone who wanted pot had their own backyard pot patch.
And I'm sure those slaves working in the coca fields you mentioned, apreciated the agent orange you dropped on them.
Dang without the previous post by Loki3 it looks kind of like a non sequitir.
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Post by Loki3 on Jan 17, 2004 13:36:54 GMT -5
Well Ime now going to respond to ya because now your metioning things you obviously know nothing about.
This drips with just what I was trying to prove in my last post. We never used AGent Orange on anyone. Our operations were not against civilians, they were done on drug producers........ ya'know (or maybe you dont) the bad guys who would sooner kill ya than look at ya........I would like you to refrain from talking about the things myself and other Soldiers and Police did down there until you become cognecent of what happened down there, and become famailiar in at least a passing manner of what we did. Because your comment shows ya DONT. !
Well your wrong. Simple as that. While I ws down there I had alot of exposure to alot of people. And I can tell you from EDUCATED, FIRST HAND Experience that the drug growers and suppliers there are hoping with crossed fingers that the US legalizes drugs........... They really are....... Ya see if it becomes legal here, then the Goverments like Columbia nd such will lose alot of help from the US, and then that opens the doors for them to ship there poison, and let me tell ya its poison. PERIOD. to other locales..... Canada, UK, Europe, and yes even the USA... still adding to the problem.
I dont see how this applies to the issue at hand, if your talking my comment I deleted about drug users killing themselves everyday then,...... again thats retarded.... In my opinion.
I mean come on, people die everyday. Its life. But there is a BIG differeance between lets say some poor guy with cancer wasting away who should have the right to end it in a dignified manner, and some drugged out junkie they find OD'd under some overpass................... or some kid that OD's because he takes too much of some narcotic.
OK I apologize for my accusation then to ya, But the overall point here is simple.
It is EASY to sit back in your warm comfortable home, and see whats wrong with our policies, and yes air them, complain I agree we all should do that, because thats what makes this country great.
BUT........ be educated about what your complaining about. I dont mean that in a mean way, but your criticizing and making accusations that are frankly not true.
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Post by khyron1144 on Jan 17, 2004 14:03:23 GMT -5
If you or the United States army did not drop any agent orange on the coca fields in South America I apologize. I did read that Agent Orange has been dropped on the coca fields in South America by the United States military, and that it has had a negative impact on the health of the civilian population. If my source was wrong, I guess I was misinformed.
As for my comment about the right to die in the manner of your choosing, let me clarify.
I consider the use of any drug including alcohol and tobacco to essentially be a protracted form of suicide.
I also consider riding a bike or motorcycle without a helmet or riding in a car without a seat belt a suicide attempt.
I support the right of adult individuals to do all those things and more.
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Post by Merkuri on Jan 17, 2004 15:31:44 GMT -5
As for my comment about the right to die in the manner of your choosing, let me clarify. I consider the use of any drug including alcohol and tobacco to essentially be a protracted form of suicide. I also consider riding a bike or motorcycle without a helmet or riding in a car without a seat belt a suicide attempt. I support the right of adult individuals to do all those things and more. And what happens if these people aren't educated? Is it suicide attempt if the person doing ecstasy has been told her whole life that it's harmless? A lot of drug users today don't know the full extent of what they are doing. Yes, some of them know and just don't care, and some of them didn't know whey they got addicted and now it's extremely hard to stop. Oh, and you also didn't take into account the people who get so drunk or so stoned that they end up taking an innocent life, like a drunk driver hitting a jogger. Is that a murder-suicide? |
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Post by khyron1144 on Jan 17, 2004 16:22:23 GMT -5
I have no sympathy or tolerance for drunk or otherwise intoxicated drivers. They should be flayed alive with a small-bladed knife over a period of a few days.
If you are making an informed decision, see what I said about education above, you have the right to kill yourself in the manner of your choosing in the privacy of your own home. Once innocents are involved, the situation totally changes.
While I wouldn't want a stoned pot-head driving, I would trust someone stoned on pot to not be belligerent, aggressive, or violent more than someone drunk on alcohol, yet alcohol is legal and pot isn't.
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Post by Loki3 on Jan 17, 2004 17:15:09 GMT -5
And there we go to the crux of the issue. One is, another is not.
I was addressing your original question before this became a drug legalazation topic....
I think the point here is this.
You feel that drugs and or certain drugs should be legalized, and feel they with proper control, they are not any more harmful than tobacco or alcahol.
Now I feel, and I feel this way because of my various life experiences... that drugs are a poison, and should never be legalized.......
Now let me do a tad bit of clarification on that..........
Marijuanna is a natural occuring plant. And the studies I have read they do support the argument that they are no more if a carcenigen than tobacco, and have no more of a harmful effect than alcahol. Thus I can and am willing to yield to that argument of legalazation and taxation of the drug.
Now...
Cocaine IS NOT natually occuring, Cocaine, Meth, Crack, Heroin, PCP, LSD, Mescaline, Uppers(various types), Speed, and the list goes on and on Again.... ARE NOT naturally occuring they require a refinement process that alters a natural product, and along with that the processes that are involved are dangerous, and along with that some of them are so carcenigenic that when labs are found they are literally a danger to whole neiborhoods.......
Marijuanna OK fine legalize it, tax it, try to control it..... but the rest of those drugs SHOULD NEVER be legalized.
It is literally Societal Suicide if we do that.
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Post by Shura on Jan 17, 2004 18:01:47 GMT -5
I don't know. I don't take drugs myslef, but I've felt for some time that people with rights should be allowed to do what they want to their own bodies without the state interfering. The legalisation of drugs could bring the trade out into the open and stop those who are abused by the crime lords that run the drug trade. It could signifcantly reduce gang warfare and help weaken dictatorships in less developed countries. People would have it on their own conscience whether they would take drugs or not, so there would be more freedom. It would raise awareness about drugs. It would save the state a massive amount of resources.
the only problem with this is that awareness would have to become paramount in order to halt drug abuse, whcih will still cause tragedy.
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Post by Hussar on Jan 17, 2004 19:53:19 GMT -5
Yes, I can see how Holland has decended into anarchy with massive unrest and huge social issues and massive crime rates because it legalized drugs. Oh, wait, they don't have any of those things you say? Really? Oh...
And, those drugs that you are talking about destroying the world were legal not that long ago. Cocaine was legal in the first quarter or so of the 20th century. Hmmm, period of massive social breakdown? I don't think so.
The war on drugs has failed. When the War on Drugs began, the US spent 5 billion dollars. Last year, the US spent 16 billion dollars and didn't hurt the drug trade one iota. Not in the slightest. It is time to try something new, because what you're doing now hasn't worked. It failed. Pick up and move on. People complain about spending money on welfare, that it's such a big money hole. Yet, you never hear a peep about the billions of dollars tossed away fighting a lost war.
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