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Post by Merkuri on Feb 13, 2004 9:10:35 GMT -5
So, when you walk into a French school, you have to forget about your religion and your god, essentially you have to become an atheist and change your whole personality if religion is a big part of your life?
I just don't see what's wrong with wearing religious symbols for anybody, not just Muslim headscarves. It's not like you're preaching. If they're trying to make everybody look "equal", then they'd better have all the blacks lighten their skin so they don't look black (or vice versa, darken white skin). For some people, their religion is as essential to them as their race (and in some cases, they're almost indistinguisable), and if they're expected to leave their religion at the door, they might as well leave their skin color, too. What's wrong with being able to tell at a glance that somebody's Christian or Muslim or Jewish? It's the same as being able to glance at somebody and tell if they're white, black, asian, or middle-eastern.
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Post by Hussar on Feb 13, 2004 9:15:07 GMT -5
That's a very American point of view. Me, I'd much rather people leave their religion at home or at their place of worship. Why should my children be forced to see religious trappings if they don't want to? Why allow it by allowing religions in a place where religion has absolutely no place? It's a public school. That means it is not a place of worship, nor is it a place where the church, no matter what church, should have ANY say. Let's not forget our history here and forget how hard it was for France to break away from Church rule. If the French want to completely remove public dispays of religion in schools, I say more power to them.
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 13, 2004 9:29:05 GMT -5
Why should my children be forced to see religious trappings if they don't want to? Why should your children be forecd to see people of different ethnicity if they don't want to? Or people of a different sexual orientation? There are many "questionable" things that you can't prevent children from seeing in public places, and I think religion is one of the least "harmful" examples of that. (And, as a side note, I think a parent who tries to prevent their children from seeing or knowing about different religions is a very closed-minded person and might even be doing harm to their children by hiding something like that from them. Kids should learn as much as they can, even if it's about a touchy subject.) Religion is a very essential part of some people's lives, and to deny it exists is just burying it away. It's still there, you can't stop it. I'm not saying schools should become places of worship or that religious folks should get more leniency than atheists (or one religion more than another, for that matter), but to stop people from simply wearing symbols of their religion is just like making them hide who they are, especially when their religion mandates that they wear the symbol. It may be a very American viewpoint, but I believe in it, and if you ask me, the French are being a bit paranoid. It's understandable given their history, but paranoid nonetheless.
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Post by Challenger on Feb 13, 2004 9:31:23 GMT -5
So, when you walk into a French school, you have to forget about your religion and your god, essentially you have to become an atheist and change your whole personality if religion is a big part of your life? Yep thats fairly close to the mark. I imagine this is not a new rule in France, most of the Muslims who are moaning choose to settle in Francem, no one forced them to. If you move to a new country you can't expect them to change their way of life to suit you. What they are doing is upholding the spirit as well as the letter of their law. Neither your religion, or culture grants you the right to break the law. Challenger
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 13, 2004 9:35:35 GMT -5
The "like it, or get out" approach doesn't always apply, you know. Some folks don't have enough cash to leave a country, especially when all the surrounding countries are starting to implement the same law you're leaving because of.
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Post by Challenger on Feb 13, 2004 9:36:03 GMT -5
I'm not saying schools should become places of worship or that religious folks should get more leniency than atheists (or one religion more than another, for that matter.Actualy Merkuri you are. The law states no relgion in schools. I'd put money on most French schools having a no hats rules. Thats a school rule and a French law broken by wearing religious head wear in a French school. Challenger
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Post by Challenger on Feb 13, 2004 9:42:26 GMT -5
You missed the point Merkuri
The no religion in schools rule probably (Please correct me if I'm wrong) was in existance when they moved to France in the first place. If they didn't like it why did they not go somewhere else.
Challenger
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 13, 2004 9:42:49 GMT -5
In that case, yes take the headscarves off. I've been out of high school so long I forgot they don't like hats (never knew why). But if that was a rule already, why is this new law needed? I'd just say "take 'em off" and point to the "no hats" rule. At the same time, if the school has uniforms, then wear the uniform, and if the uniform states "no jewelry or headware" then no crosses on necklaces or no headscarves and skullcaps. Pointing out religious symbols particularly is being predjudiced against religious people, in my opinion. As I said before, I'm for no special treatment for or against religions.
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Post by Challenger on Feb 13, 2004 10:03:33 GMT -5
Its not a new law so much as a law to define an old and rather vague one. I'd guess someone's found a loup hole and been exploiting it. (Or alot of people most likely) I'd imagine the exploting was every religion its just that Muslims seem to be the most vocal group at the minute so their getting the most coverage.
Challenger
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Post by ShonenSenshiDave on Feb 13, 2004 10:30:26 GMT -5
The reality of it is this:
There is utterly no reason to take such offense at a person's expression of self. For many Muslims and Jews, their religion is so closely intertwined with their cultural identity, it's almost impossible to differentiate the two.
Additionally, so what if they're wearing a religious symbol? Believe it or not, the mere presence of a religious symbol does not mean that the wearer is waltzing around and trying to convert everyone they meet to their particular path.
Also, let's keep in mind that the law is so geared to reflect a Christian mentality it's not even remotely fair. Christians, as a general rule, do not have specific cultural or religious articles of clothing as do Muslims and Jews. Jews wear yarlmakas, and Muslims have the scarves and turbans (Thanks, EK for the correction). The law is blatantly pro-Christian, relecting the ridiculous levels of anti-Semetism and anti-Muslimism rampant throughout Europe.
And Challenger, could you read what you're writing for a moment, please? First off, the "like it or lump it" mentality which you espouse is sadly missing the point about this debate. This is a rewritten law, so there is no way anyone could have known about it. Secondly, when you travel over state/country/regional lines, do you check to see if everything you're doing is legal? Moral? Ethical? Probably not. People aren't legally obligated to research the laws of a country they plan to move to, ESPECIALLY WHEN SAID COUNTRY CHANGES THE RULES AFTER YOU'VE MOVED THERE! As I stated above, assuming that this is an old, unenforceable law which is being rewritten, no one could see this coming.
Even though I'm not Christian, Muslim, or Jew, I can see the blatant prejudice behind this law, I can see the unfairness of it. And I agree with Merkuri, what's next? Racial Segregation? Segregation based on sexual orientation? Gender? Handicap status? Veteran status? Whenever you strip the rights of one group to placate the few, eventually YOUR rights will be the ones being taken away. And who's gonna stand up for you?
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 13, 2004 10:35:20 GMT -5
Muslims seem to be the most vocal group at the minute so their getting the most coverage. You know, I suspect that the Muslims were they only ones not vocal about it, until the topic of the law was brought up. This was probably started by tons of (probably Christian) parents complaining about Muslims "flaunting" their religion by wearing headscarves. Although, I say again, that if hats and headware are not allowed then Muslims should abide by that rule and remove their headscarves. However, if a Christian student were allowed to wear a berett (sp?) or a "normal" shawl then headscarves shouldn't get any special treatment.
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Post by khyron1144 on Feb 13, 2004 13:52:56 GMT -5
It does sound unfair.
One can find and wear a small, modest cross, Star of David, pentacle, or pentagram that isn't totally obvious. The same can't be done with a turban or head scarf.
Unless you want to getthoize all the religions and create a seperate neighborhood for everyone (anybody remember the last group that attempted anything close? [hint 1930s and 40s Germany]) atheists can't expect to not be exposed to religious symbols of any sort.
Here's a question: what happens if every student in France gets detention or expelled all once?
Here's a novel solution: Create an atheist church with no symbol for its symbol. Then wait until all the Christians, Jews, and Muslims point out all the atheists blatantly wearing their symbol.
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 13, 2004 14:11:34 GMT -5
Here's a novel solution: Create an atheist church with no symbol for its symbol. Then wait until all the Christians, Jews, and Muslims point out all the atheists blatantly wearing their symbol. Hehehehehehehehehe Edit (to avoid two posts in a row): A thought just occured to me... are French students prevented from wearing any non-religious organization symbols? For example, could a French student wear a t-shirt with the emblem for SADD (Students Against Drunk Driving) or the French equivalent (if there is one)?
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Post by EK - Shadow of Death on Feb 14, 2004 2:13:13 GMT -5
A thought just occured to me... are French students prevented from wearing any non-religious organization symbols? For example, could a French student wear a t-shirt with the emblem for SADD (Students Against Drunk Driving) or the French equivalent (if there is one)? There's no organization in Europe to regulate drinking of any kind - its too culturally ingrained (besides - its against Euro-culture to drive while drunk; its very rare). As for non-religious organizations, just consider big businesses that sell clothing - they print their logo on every item (like Nike)! One can't ban that.
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Post by Challenger on Feb 14, 2004 19:01:42 GMT -5
besides - its against Euro-culture to drive while drunk; its very rare. It is? As I was aware drink driving is one of the big causes of road accidents in Britain. As for non-religious organizations, just consider big businesses that sell clothing - they print their logo on every item (like Nike)! One can't ban that. For the record they are banned (unsuccesfuly at my school and rather more succesfuly at the other local colledge) Football shirts etc are also out. Religious wear? not a clue, don't even know if we have a muslim etc in school. I do know one local school has banned a muslim girl for wearing her head dress but then its a school with a strict uniform code that you are expected to follow. I imagine they have exceptions but I don't believe religion is/should be one of them. I could see our school allowing her to ignore dress code. But I could also see alot of trouble coming of that. Challenger
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