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Post by Merkuri on Feb 11, 2004 10:13:33 GMT -5
In about a month, the French government is expected to pass a law banning Muslim headscarves, large Christian crosses, Jewish skullcaps, Sikh turbans, and any other obvious religious symbols from schools. This law has passed in the parliment with an overwhelming majority (494 yea, 36 nay) and is expected to be approved by the upper house next month. The law would take effect this September. More info from the BBC, CNN, and the NYTimes. Is this fair? Will it help ease tensions between religious groups, or will it just serve to widen the canyon between them? Does it promote equality, or repression? |
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Post by Challenger on Feb 11, 2004 10:34:53 GMT -5
The French have a strice no religion policy in their schools
This is simply them upholding their own laws.
Is it fair. Yes as it applies to everyone.
Will it ease tensions. No but then a u turn letting the muslims have their headscarves would be unfair and so annoy every other religion in France.
Challenger
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 11, 2004 11:06:05 GMT -5
France has one of the largest Muslim populations in Europe. Wearing a headscarf isn't quite like wearing a cross for Christians. If a Christian doesn't wear a cross, oh well, you don't have to. If a Muslim woman doesn't wear a headscarf, she's beng a bad Muslim. Now, I'm not a Muslim, nor do I know any, so this is just my understanding and I may have it wrong (somebody please correct me if I am!), but a Muslim woman not wearing a headscarf would probably be comparable to a Christian woman not wearing a shirt. Hair is considerd a very sexual thing, and a woman showing it is considered indecent. Imagine being a girl going to school in a country where the culture is radically different than yours, and being forced to take off your shirt before you go to school every day. You'd feel naked and like everyone was looking at you, even if that was the cultural norm.
In my opinion, this will alienate the Mulim population much further than it already is. I understand the need for the French government to uphold pre-existing laws to not allow religion in schools, but I think they're going a little too far.
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Post by EK - Shadow of Death on Feb 11, 2004 11:44:38 GMT -5
France has one of the largest Muslim populations in Europe. Wearing a headscarf isn't quite like wearing a cross for Christians. If a Christian doesn't wear a cross, oh well, you don't have to. If a Muslim woman doesn't wear a headscarf, she's beng a bad Muslim. Now, I'm not a Muslim, nor do I know any, so this is just my understanding and I may have it wrong (somebody please correct me if I am!), but a Muslim woman not wearing a headscarf would probably be comparable to a Christian woman not wearing a shirt. Hair is considerd a very sexual thing, and a woman showing it is considered indecent. Imagine being a girl going to school in a country where the culture is radically different than yours, and being forced to take off your shirt before you go to school every day. You'd feel naked and like everyone was looking at you, even if that was the cultural norm. In my opinion, this will alienate the Mulim population much further than it already is. I understand the need for the French government to uphold pre-existing laws to not allow religion in schools, but I think they're going a little too far. It really depends on what type of Muslim you are. In the same version of Islam, men are supposed to be wearing head coverings at all times (now you know why Osama always wears a turban). In my travels around France, I've noticed that the majority were Arabs, and as such were required by their cultural and religious tenets to wear the burkha (as opposed to non-Arab muslims, such as Turkish muslims, Slavic muslims, etc) and as such Merkuri's statements are quite valid. There are plenty of people out there who wish to make religion a huge part of their life. By taking away the right to express themselves, the French government has taken away a large of part of some peoples' soul. On a related side note: keep in mind that while one isn't allowed to wear large and highly overt religious symbols, if a Christian wishes to wear a small cross on a thin chain around their neck (like not a few do), that is perfectly legal. |
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 11, 2004 11:49:22 GMT -5
On a related side note: keep in mind that while one isn't allowed to wear large and highly overt religious symbols, if a Christian wishes to wear a small cross on a thin chain around their neck (like not a few do), that is perfectly legal. Yes, but isn't it ironic (or appropriate, depending on which way you wanna look at it) that the only religion whose symbols are often small (like a cross on a necklace) is Christianity? I'm not insinuating that this is intentional, just that it's convenient that it happened this way, eh? |
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Post by EK - Shadow of Death on Feb 11, 2004 12:11:50 GMT -5
True. You can get small representations of other religious symbols (Star of David, Aum, Islamic crescent, etc), but the wearing of those are not requisite to being a truer practitioner of those religions.
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Post by Challenger on Feb 11, 2004 12:46:41 GMT -5
Question: anyone have any idea if hats are banned in French schools?
Challenger
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Post by Galadon on Feb 12, 2004 12:55:28 GMT -5
Not to be a troubel maker  . What would happen if the majority of Muslims wore head scarfs in spite of the law, and didn't pay any fines. Would the french police jail all the muslims. |
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 12, 2004 12:57:43 GMT -5
Probably more likely to be a detention or expulsion, since this is kids in school we're talking about, not adults or criminals.
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Post by ShonenSenshiDave on Feb 12, 2004 14:46:16 GMT -5
This is just asking for trouble, IMO. It's already tough to be a Muslim right now, and making a law whose intent is to target a specific religious group which is having "PR" problems to begin with is like kicking someone when they're down.
Let's be realistic for a moment, shall we. The law says "Muslim headscarves, large Christian crosses, Jewish skullcaps, Sikh turbans, and any other obvious religious symbols from schools". OK, wearing a Yarmalka (sp?) isn't religiously required, IIRC. I've known several Conservative Jews, never saw them wearing one unless they were going to Temple. Large Christian crosses, oh please, how easy is that to get around?
Now we have the head scarves. Religiously mandated, with a heavy dose of cultural baggage attached to them. It's not just a matter of religion, either, which is in jeopardy. We're also talking about cultural identity as well, and morality. For example, one aspect of the head scarves is a recognition of the somewhat repressed sexuality Islam expects of it's women. By taking away the scarves, not only are you compromising their religious values, but you're also forcing them to deal with collateral issues they may not be ready to deal with.
This is a bad idea all around. Too bad France doesn't have a first amendment...
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Post by EK - Shadow of Death on Feb 12, 2004 22:59:40 GMT -5
Completely forgot about Sikh turbans. They have 5 tenets in Sikhism that they have to follow - wearing a turban is one of them. Now, there are some more liberal Sikhs (even in India, etc), but for the most part, a Sikh not wearing a turban is akin to a Christian committing adultery (from a purely religious standpoint). And the French choose to force this on people?
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Post by Hussar on Feb 13, 2004 8:43:04 GMT -5
It's still a 100% better than what the German government is forcing on its schools. It isn't even attempting to be fair. It's flat out targetting headscarves and completely leaves out any mention of Christian stuff. Talk about racism.
The thing to remember is that the French has a tradition of keeping religion firmly out of any sort of public life. Politicians are not to speak out on religious grounds, schools are not to teach one religion or another. It is a very different system from an American system. The separation of church and state is very wide in France. I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing.
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Post by Merkuri on Feb 13, 2004 8:48:54 GMT -5
But where is the line that divides "separating church and state" from "revoking the right to practice my religion"?  |
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Post by Challenger on Feb 13, 2004 9:00:09 GMT -5
Merkuri in French schools you have no right to practice religion.
Just as a quick side question. How can you expect to be treated the same as everyone else if you then turn round and demand exception from rules a, b and c?
Challenger
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Post by Hussar on Feb 13, 2004 9:10:19 GMT -5
Essentially, Challenger is correct. I'm not sure if you have the right to freedom to practice religion in France. I really don't know.
Canada has also gone a long way towards this too. While we haven't banned things like headscarves, we did remove prayer from schools a long time ago. Granted, we still have publicly funded Catholic schools however.
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