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Angry
Oct 24, 2003 3:48:08 GMT -5
Post by Draxy on Oct 24, 2003 3:48:08 GMT -5
Actually, I am a serious student of psychology and I can't think of a single mental disorder or even an mental aberance where that is true. Which one(s) are you referring too?
Draxy
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Angry
Oct 24, 2003 3:57:59 GMT -5
Post by Hussar on Oct 24, 2003 3:57:59 GMT -5
While I don't really agree with the second bit, the first bit:
is definitely true in many mental disorders. Look at bulemia (sp). The person knows that throwing up his or her lunch is a bad thing but that does not stop them from sticking a finger down their throat. The recognition of a wrong-doing usually comes after the fact. I came home one night to find my gf had shaved off both her eyebrows. I asked her why and she said that she started plucking them but couldn't get them even so she shaved them off. Then she burst out crying because she didn't really know why she did it, just that it seemed a good idea at the time.
That's the whole point of a mental disorder isn't it? That the person performs actions for irrational and often destructive reasons? That the person is incapable of controlling impulses? Isn't that probably the most basic definition of a mental disorder?
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Angry
Oct 24, 2003 4:30:13 GMT -5
Post by Draxy on Oct 24, 2003 4:30:13 GMT -5
Incorrect Hussar. The ability to recognise that something is not healthy and still doing it is compulsion. While a person can feel compulsions and be ruled by them if they allow it, they can not be ruled by them if they do not.
It is like with alchoholism. It IS a disease, that is mostly mental in form. But it CAN be overcome if the person wants it badly enough. n There is not a single mental disorder known that does not produce a catatonic state that can not be over come. Medication can make this problem easier, but it by itself can do NOTHING!
The person, the individual is the one in charge. Period. On this point there is no real debate in psychological circles. The debate centers around how much you can expect of a person.
A bi-ploar without their meds CAN be an absolute monster, or not. It isn't wholely dependant on the intensity of the syndrome either, but rather to a much greater extent upon the individual's drive and ability to control themselves. This is why meditation and self hypnosis is sometimes a manner in which Bi-ploar Disorder, for instance, is being treated today, and in many cases is EXTREMELY effective.
The person does KNOW what they are doing. The natures of the various disorders make it FAR, FAR more difficult to deal with whatever the individual problem is on a personal basis though. BUT, the person always still KNOWS!
In todays society we seem to want to put everyone in ethical dignity pants. No one is really responsible for their actions... it's outside influences. Bull Hockey! You con your own ship. You make your own choices and you and you alone are responsible for them. That is the nature of adulthood.
Draxy
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Angry
Oct 24, 2003 5:20:25 GMT -5
Post by Hussar on Oct 24, 2003 5:20:25 GMT -5
Respectfully Draxy, because, in all honesty, I don't know a lot about this, but I do know that, the law certainly disagrees with you. Mental incompetence is and has been a valid legal defence for a long time. There has to be a recognition that a person is not in control of his or her actions. Can they control themselves sometimes? Yes. But, if they could control themselves all the time, then they wouldn't be considered to have a problem then would they? Many mental disorders entail a loss of control. From autism to ADD (Hey, I'm a teacher, I deal with what I know), mental disorders certainly cause people to act in ways that are contrary to any logic. And yes, they may recognise what they are doing is wrong, but they cannot stop doing it because of the disorder. This idea that people with mental disorders have no defense for what they have done can be taken a little too far, to the point where a person who really is not in control of their actions is held responsible.
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Angry
Oct 24, 2003 6:55:04 GMT -5
Post by Draxy on Oct 24, 2003 6:55:04 GMT -5
The first and foremost thing that any doctor or therapist can do for a person with a disorder or syndrome that is harming them or those around them is to help them to realize that they ARE in control.
Sometimes they allow that control to slip. So do I. So do you. So does every human being.
The courts do NOT accept the idea of true mental incompetence except in cases where the person has spun so far out of control that they have "become a danger to themselves or others". But even then, the proper term for such a state is "DECREASED capacity". Decreased... which in the court systems has a legal meaning, but still is not "non-existant capacity".
The point at which a person has ceased to struggle for control can be empathised with. Try living with my memories some time. But the person is still knowledgable except in the cases of severe mental retardation. Conversely though, people in that state of being are VERY seldom violent to others, although they can be extremely violent to themselves.
When a bulimic sticks their finger down their throat, or acts out in another manner, they realize that they are acting in a self destructive manner, but the root cause for that behavior has a higher threshold of resistance for them, thus they often "take the path of less resistance", which is a completely human reaction. THAT is one of the many reasons why the debate rages over what we can reasonably expect from people.
Draxy
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Angry
Oct 24, 2003 10:14:54 GMT -5
Post by Ahnemesis on Oct 24, 2003 10:14:54 GMT -5
When your a youth...you behave like a youth. When you become an adult...it's up to you to change your life. You are responcible for the damamge you do to others YOU CANNOT BLAME OTHERS FOR YOUR MISTAKES! Not as an adult. I don't care ho w, hard-wired you've been. I was treated rough as a child. My life at times was a living hell. But, I made a difference with my childrens lives. Thats the choice adults have. Anything else chosen that hurts others, as an adult, it's our own fault. We have to pay for it. As for the man who beat this girl... leathal injection. No arguments, no hesitation. If he admits to it and did it...thats it. That little girl was helpless against her attacker. Where is her justice? It should be in the hands of the judge and he should not be bullied by lawyers who argue about this mans poor, neglected past! As a child he was a victim. But he is now an adult. Time to PAY as an adult.
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Angry
Oct 24, 2003 15:45:56 GMT -5
Post by RowanMoonWynd on Oct 24, 2003 15:45:56 GMT -5
Being a person who has to live with the bipolar disorder, I can understand both sides of this debate. I DO know when my moods change, I get into this awful rage, and I know my emotions are out of control, but at the same time I cannot stop what I am feeling, so the only thing I CAN do is to pull myself away from my family so they will not be harmed. That is the CHOICE I make. This man KNEW what he was feeling, and instead of making the choice to walk away from the child to keep from harming it, he did what he did and I agree, he needs to accept full responsibility for his actions and thus be punished for it. But on the other hand, before I found out I was bipolar I did not have the EDUCATION or KNOWLEDGE on how to deal with what I was feeling because I didn't understand it, and alot of times I wasn't even aware that it was happening to me until others started to point that fact out to me. I thought I was truly insane and that I couldn't do anything to help myself, and so the people around me suffered from my mood swings. As far as being able to control my feelings, I cannot. What I can control is what to do with myself when my feelings get out of hand and go to the extreme, and that is when I pull away from everyone and go off by myself because I don't want to hurt anyone when enraged, and I don't want anyone to see me when I get severly depressed. The only time I let people around me is when I'm in a mania, and well then I'm flying high and life is great and the only thing that gets hurt in that respect is my finances.
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Angry
Oct 24, 2003 17:16:05 GMT -5
Post by Draxy on Oct 24, 2003 17:16:05 GMT -5
I can empathise with RMW. I had an initial diagnosis of bipolar disorder when I was working with a Psychologist/therapist who was acting as a volunteer in a canned goods and clothing outreach that I helped organize in my then home town. He offered me counciling free of charge as most of my extra capital at the time was tied up in getting the program running and offered to perscribe meds to help to deal with it.
I took the counciling but it took a long time for me to get him to understand that meds were something I just could NOT do. Not wouldn't do it; but could not. My entire life was centered around my control of myself in all aspects, mainly by mantric/cantric centering techniques and Zen practices. You have to do something to control the volcano.
I was walking a tight rope... one that I stayed on by being the most over obsessed bugger you can imagine. I was spending 35-50 hours a week running my own handyman/light hauling business, was spending 30+ hours a week at the Outreach Center (which we later expanded into a holiday meals outreach as well), was gaming two nights a week (about 10 hours all totaled), spending a day to day and a half on the weekends with my weekends with my son, spending atleast 15 hours a week at the YMCA weight room, reading six to eight books a week at night and sleeping less than three hours a night on average.
In short I became a manic obsessive to deal with the bi-polar syndrome because the bi-polar syndrome was FAR scarier. But even before the diagnosis (and the adding of three hours a week of therapy to my already massively overloaded scheduale) I knew that the ever building rages were going to kill someone right quick if I didn't find another outlet for them.
Now, I'm a former US Marine, so I had a strong basis in self control and self discipline to work from and had been practicing Zen and mantric centering techniques for better than a decade before things built to such a head, so I realize that I can not use myself as a basis for comparison with those who have not had this background, but...
Never once in the eight years that all this was at it's worst, not even during my divorce from my first wife, did I ever let slip the reins of control {EDIT: "with another human being on the recieving end}. If I had the results would have been too ugly to contemplate. Knowing this, KNOWING IT, is what allowed me to survive this time. I had the mood swings, the rages, the frustrated emotional roller coaster that makes you think that madness sounds like a picnic, but I always knew the responsibilities for my actions were mine alone and THAT kept me in control.
Now true, years later the way I dealt with this all led to a nearly textbook case of Kundalini Syndrome, but that's another topic.
Draxy
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Angry
Oct 24, 2003 18:20:33 GMT -5
Post by RowanMoonWynd on Oct 24, 2003 18:20:33 GMT -5
You know I never thought about doing Mantras or anything like that........I just walk away. That's a good idea and I'll have to give it a try.
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Angry
Oct 25, 2003 1:11:55 GMT -5
Post by MjolnirH on Oct 25, 2003 1:11:55 GMT -5
The baby story hits a little close to home for my lil viking clone is 10 weeks old and he's pretty hearty for a babe, but he's still very fragile, why by Thor would ANYONE do such a thing . Speaking of bipolar my wife is bipolar and i'm very proud of her she takes no medication. when she starts to get a little nuts I keep her in check
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Angry
Oct 25, 2003 11:31:04 GMT -5
Post by RowanMoonWynd on Oct 25, 2003 11:31:04 GMT -5
Congrats on your little viking clone!! The story also hits a little close to home for me also. Although of a different nature than this baby, my nephew died when he was three months old in a daycare center. Trey was born six and a half weeks early and his lungs were not fully developed. When my brother's wife had to go back to work they had to put him in daycare, and the daycare center was told not to lay that baby on his tummy because his lungs could not support his weight. Well what did the daycare center do? They laid my nephew on his tummy for naptime at 9:10 and didn't check on him again until 10:30 and by that time he was beyond revival. That was two years ago and my brother has never recovered from his tremendous loss, I don't think anyone in my family has. Now, thankfully, the Goddess has decided to give my brother another chance. My second nephew was born just this past Monday, and my brother had the monitors with the bells and whistles to go along with it brought home from the hospital for Ty even though he was born healthy. He is an avid speaker for teaching parents not to lay their babies on their tummies and supports the "Back to Sleep" program. It's been a long road for him, but I hope with Ty's birth he can learn to let Trey go now. I just want to say hats off to you for supporting your lovely wife. I know the support I receive from my husband makes all the difference in the world to me. He is such a wonderful man and I love him fiercely. I had to sit and tell him yesterday what a mess I have made with our finances again, and they are really bad, but this wonderful man was more concerned that I was going to get severely depressed again like I did this time last year, wants me to put the children in bed early tonight before he gets home from work so that we may have time alone together. How wonderful he is and incredibly lucky I am to have him in my life.
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Angry
Oct 25, 2003 12:17:58 GMT -5
Post by Galadon on Oct 25, 2003 12:17:58 GMT -5
I have been living with depression for most of my life. The reasons I refuse to take any precription drugs for it, is because now it's normal for me. I live with it there are not great mood swings. it wasn't till I was was 42 when I was hit with a bad case of depression. Basically didn't care about nothing or nobody. But I came out of it mostly on my own. mainly because there isn't no one else, what people call a support structure.
But though all this, I keep the thought, I was still responsible for by action. This may sound mean, but I never buy in the "I have a diease, I'm not gulity." Lawyers and their temp insanity bit to get people off. and I was drunk I can't help it.
Just a little while ago the medical community has determined there are NO genes that make you a drunk, and it's not passed down. If you can't handle you life, then don't drink.
You are resonsible for your actions, If you kill your kids just because you were feeling depressed, fine we will give you some medication while you spend the rest of your life in prison or on dead row.
To long in this country they come up with a new disease of the week to explain away bad parents. responsibility has gone down the drain because of "it's not my flaut I was temporary insane. " You can use a judgement call when someone is trying to pull a fast one or they need help.
In this country a terrible thing is growing. There are to many people who think they have a right to have kids. Children are not a right they are a responsibility for your entire life. But we have people who have kids to get more welfare, because it's the thing to do, and then ignore the kids. and then the kids get pregnant.
Don't think this is just a poor people thing, just as many upper middle class and rich do the same thing, except they have more way to cover it up. leave kids in dumpster, in restrooms of different buildings. Teaching people responsiblity is more important than worrying how someone feels.
Well little bill doesn't know how to add or read but at least he feels good about himself, what do the parents do, too many do nothing. and wonder why bill just killed 15 people. Being a parent is not easy, who ever said it was.
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Angry
Oct 26, 2003 6:31:17 GMT -5
Post by Draxy on Oct 26, 2003 6:31:17 GMT -5
You know I never thought about doing Mantras or anything like that........I just walk away. That's a good idea and I'll have to give it a try. HI RWM, Only one thought quickly, and this is not a knock on any religious convictions or beliefs, but if you do use mantric centering, which I can attest to works wonderfully, do not make it a matra with religious signifigance. The idea is psychologicly grounded in this: they don't always work and if you have hooked them to an ideal or idealised form or religious or personal spiritual signifigance and they fail, subconsciously you began to blame the foci of the mantra. So, if it's spiritually signifigant, you begin to blame that spiritualistic ideal. Personally I use Zen Koans, because the loss of a single koan's insight is insignifigant in the over all, but I've known people who use mantras as diverse as esoteric mathematical formula and as simple as repeating their shopping list over and over to themselves. One other thing... try to do something physical that takes little or no brain power at the same time. Crocheting works for some and I do origami if I can do it sitting in one place, or I might do light housework; the point being NOT to leave, as it allows you to feel more in control not to and I surely don't have to tell you how important that psychological edge (feeling more in control) can be. Draxy
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Angry
Oct 26, 2003 10:55:48 GMT -5
Post by RowanMoonWynd on Oct 26, 2003 10:55:48 GMT -5
Draxy,
Thank you for your advice on the Mantra. It makes alot of sense to not use any religious signifinance and if you had not of told me that is probably what I would have done. Also the advice on doing something psycial is GREATLY appreciated because I do know all too well the control issues you referred to, and I HATE losing it!!
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Angry
Oct 26, 2003 20:46:14 GMT -5
Post by LadyWinterWolf on Oct 26, 2003 20:46:14 GMT -5
Hats off to all who have some sort of syndrome, illness or disease, whatever word you want to label it, and who consciously do whatever they can to live with it, and help their families live with it also.
But, IMHO, the second someone says, "I can't get help. I don't know how to get help. I can't be bothered to get help.", that's when you have to wonder if the person actually wants help. Or have they become too comfortable with the way they are, even knowing the destruction that they inflict upon themselves, and others.
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